Yes, the state is extremely repressive especially in the heart of empire.
And Trump made this mob the underdog with his war on the Epstein files. What joke!
Well, Iran had a democratic government before the U.S. and U.K. orchestrated the coup in 1953 that installed the Shah. The government was led by Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh, who was democratically elected and nationalized the oil industry.
And?
We are talking about what is now, and not what was before
I like the idea of remembering history and who the real villains are. These scum are just a result of American work.
I like this extra information. Why do you have a problem with it?
Context weakens the mindless imperialism that most USAians embrace.
Good thing we’re about to give them a half a trillion dollars. Goddamn the entire world sucks.
Who is “we”? Fuck nationalism. That’s the heart of the problem.
I don’t really mind when a genocidal empire pays for its crimes.
little men will do anything to stay in power.
Shithole country doing shithole things.
At least they uphold their laws, even if they’re religious trash. We can’t even get Trump out after two impeachments and evidence he’s a pedo. So who’s worse, a country with extreme religious laws that actually enacts said laws or one with much more reasonable ones but never enforces them.
Enforcing shitty laws is shitty. And you’re right: both are shithole countries doing shithole things.
Por que no los dos ?
A nice little reminder that, even with everything else, Iran is still a shit hole.
A little reminder that casual racism is alive and well. It’s this kind of bullshit that elected the pedoprez. U$A is by far the biggest shithole around.
We dont kill our woman for not wearing head gear. Nor our children when they stand up for our women’s right not to wear head gear.
Under any other circumstances you would be right. America is a shithole, I would agree with you.
That fact that you decided to make that point on a comment about a woman getting beaten for not wearing a headscarf, (in a place that jailed and killed thousands for similar, with their secret-god-police) tells me all I need to know about you as a person.
It wasnt that long ago that Mahsa Amini was killed. I will never forget or forgive the well documented violence that Iran perpetrated on its women and it’s young and hopeful.
It’s a shit hole.
That’s right. Trump shouldn’t have started a war with Iran, but it’s still a shithole country.
Imagine being such a shit hole that the world is rooting for Iran.
This mentality exhausts me. If people can stop treating geopolitics like a fucking sports match that would be great. We don’t have to root for anyone in a given conflict. We can acknowledge both sides are bad and not matter the outcome it will be bad for common people.
If we ever are able to do this we might actually have some progress. But until then we continue to worship inherently evil states
Imagine being so morally bankrupt, you can’t pick a side. It’s called critical support. I don’t support the actions of the Iranian state, but I support them in their defensive war against the global hegemon.
Funny how your type will double down on how there’s no moral choice between democrats and Republicans
Yet somehow you can find the “moral” choice between a theocratic dictatorship (also capitalist btw) and an imperial nation.
A) nobody mentioned any political party affiliation; if you want to fight people you’ve made up in your head, I recommend some grippy socks.
B) nobody has to support Iran. People support peace, which by definition means opposing the US in this conflict. Seeing as how this conflict literally has 2 sides, that definitionally means “supporting Iran.” If anything, YOU’RE the one boiling a desire for peace and stability down to “team sports.”
a) it’s an example to illustrate a point. You only have to be a very moderate lemmy user to know what I’m talking about.
b) The first sentence was correct. The rest you made up, but that’s okay you are right for the most part. Unfortunately some people don’t just mean supporting Iran in terms of the conflict with the US/Israel. If you look at the comment that I replied to you can see the user says that Iran should be supported because they oppose global hegemony. That extends far beyond the recent conflict.
In their mind the USA is the “enemy team” so whoever is up against them they will then be the “good team”. That’s exactly what the person I replied to is saying. It’s frankly sad and morally bankrupt.
Well said. Critical support for the defending nation doesn’t mean total support for the government.
Death to America.
Lmao, campism is for losers. Get on board with the west being the best or fuck off to whatever illiberal shithole you prefer.
Die, fascist.
No, the war was a good idea and the consequences of it proved that.
If Iran had nukes (which it would soon have, thanks to Trump, who in first term closed nuclear dearment agreement with Iran) and the control over Hormuz Strait and Russia as an ally, it could close the strait just because it felt so, which would be way worse than the current situation.
Oh hey an actual fascist on lemmy.world. I’m so shocked this keeps happening. Reddit is back the way you came, I can promise you weren’t banned for your views.
Get fucked, idiot. There’s no evidence that iran was actually close to getting nukes. Trump was just a massive cunt in starting a war with Iran.
They had almost 10 years of almost uninterrupted development and 2 nuclear countries as allies.
They must’ve been close.
The war didn’t start over just nukes, but also because of the Iranian people, supporting Israel and not letting Iran control such important geopolitical point as the hormuz strait.
Or at least how I see it.
Isnt that basically an execution by torture? I dont think anyone could survive 74 actual lashes if they do it like other countries with lashings.
My understanding is that it is not. It is more like a humiliation ritual. They don’t do full force.
They don’t whip them like the Americans whipped their slaves.
Thank God you’re here to tell us the correct way to whip our troublesome women 🙏
Yeah they’re both bad. One killed 100,000 or more people. Guess which one.
I don’t remember the history very well, but I remember that just in January, Iranian regime killed 40 000 of it’s people, because they dared to protest.
LMAO.
40,000!? Lmfao. Next week it will be 100,000!
Pssshh, they‘ve read it in the Guardian, so it must be true.
Lmao.
Couldn’t find a graphic depiction of american slavery, huh? But no problem finding one for Iran? Interesting.
Not particularly, you couldn’t find a relevant image either (and photography was not common, even after the introduction of glass-plate photography, 160 years ago. Everyone in the modern era carries a camera in their pocket, making images like the above from modern-day Iran much easier to produce.)
I don’t think that’s an accurate title for the piece they wrote.
Holeeee fuck. I mean I know Iranian leadership is intensely conservative and traditional, but shittttttt. Do they actually still give whippings as legal punishment?? This will be enforced and she will actually get lashes like it’s 1840s Mississippi??
U$A tortures thousands of people in solitary confinement, etc.
TBH I would rather take 100 lashes than be locked in a box for decades.
There was an Iranian football player who spoke out a while back and they basically said, “do that again and we’ll kill your family.”
Their Lego shit is pretty on point but they’re seriously not good dudes.
Imagine being so shitty that the Iranian government are the good guys. Makes you think.
Imagine instead seeing a conflict and not rushing to pick a side.
I think it’s pretty easy to say the following actually:
Iran fucking sucks and is ass backwards politically. However, the US is beyond wrong in this conflict and is clearly the problem. The US has it wrong and needs to stop.
The problem is, the first part doesn’t really need to be said since we all know this shit is evil. However, so many people think calling out the US doing war crimes is some open ended support of Irans politics.
That’s all I’m saying. As an American, should I be doing everything in my power to stop this evil administration, or should I take a callow stance of “I support Iran” and do nothing? I think I’m seeing a lot of the latter, and it bothers me.
How about I support the side that was attacked first with massive terror bombing campaigns against civilian targets that responded with missile attacks that almost entirely focused on military targets.
Seriously. America started the war by double tapping a girls school intentionally. Almost 200 girls between 9-12 were murdered in that terrorist bombing attack.
And I use the word intentionally as even fucking Google maps knew it was a girls school. First strike packages are the most carefully researched and selected targets in any war.
One side committed the war crime of perfidy during negotions, assassinated the pope of the Muslims, and murdered 200 Iranian schoolgirls on the first day. You’re not going to pick a side?
It’s impossible to bomb Iran back to the stone age. They’re already there.
No, they don’t whip them like the Americans whipped their slaves. 74 lashes would be unsurvivable with a bull whip, a la Americana
Where is the graphic depiction of american slavery? Can only find that for Iran?
Photographs weren’t exactly common 160 years ago, hense the difficulty.
If you can find an image of american slavery that depicts the whips used in use, I welcome it (well kinda, I’d much prefer a non-graphic image of what’s used in Iran, though I couldn’t find that either). Otherwise this is the only relevant image I could find.
Weird sources. Who has killed more people through whipping?
Edit: funny how the Iranian whipping victim was nsfw, yet you chose a sfw whipping victim from the Americans, despite them whipping hundreds of thousands of people to death.
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Amnesty international and CARLI are about as reputable as sources can get.
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There are no stats that* answer that, from Iran or the atlantic slave trade.
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Unless that link is broken, that image depicts an american whip, not a whipping victim. edit: If you mean why didn’t I include photos of an american slavery whipping victim, there are no photographs of slave punishment I could find that have a legible image of the whip, which is the important info here. Photography 160 years ago was not great at capturing motion.
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there were approximately 10 million slaves in the US, total. Although I can’t find exact numbers, if we go by the reasonable estimates from clrn we can see that between 1 in 20 to 1 in 11 slaves died of the euphemistic “conditions of slavery”, so it would be pretty damned impressive for the US to have whipped “hundreds of thousands” of people to death - certainly some were, and even more were simply beaten to death or chained and starved, but please stop making up bullshit about historical tragidies to further your own political narrative.
Studies suggest an excess mortality of 15-20% due to conditions directly related to enslavement. If we apply this mortality rate to the estimated 3-4 million enslaved Africans brought to the Americas, we arrive at an estimated 450,000 to 800,000 deaths.
If you mean why didn’t I include photos of an american slavery whipping victim, there are no photographs of slave punishment I
Literally took me 10 seconds. It’s obviously far worse than the red marks in your photo. That’s why you didn’t post. Be real.
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It’s an extremely famous image - but one that does not show the whip that was used, which was the whole point.
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Those are scars from someone with keloid disorder, which visually appear far more severe but given he is not dead were likely done with the same instrument as I showed above.
If you can find a relevant image from american slavery, or a non graphic image of the whips used in iranian corporal punishment, I welcome it! I looked quite hard and could find neither. Until then, please keep in mind I’m not trying to make the point you’re implying I’m trying to make.
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How’d that liberating of the Iranian people go again?
None of the nations claiming that as a goal give the tiniest flying fuck about Iranians
It made a lot of extremely wealthy Americans even wealthier. So we got that going for the world.
We gave the Iranian regime extremely powerful leverage on the global stage and galvanized support for the regime domestically, so not great. If there was a possibility of a popular revolt happening in Iran the war definitely killed it. The introduction of a common enemy made a lot of the domestic opposition fall in line to defend their sovereignty, and the ones who didn’t were successfully suppressed by the regime with fewer people willing to stand in solidarity with them.
תפשת מרובה לא תפשת
It looks like the us definitely bit off more than they can chew if that’s what you meant and my translation is accurate.
Intended it more directed at Israel than the US.
Could you elaborate? Despite my username, I had to look up a translation and what I got was “you don’t understand a lot”. That kinda reads that like pro invasion considering the dude you’re responding to had some palpable sarcasm. I’m not accusing you, just letting you know my train of thought.
Backwater trash policies.
Omg men saw your HAIR! Give me a fucking break. Grow the fuck up and stop acting like children who can’t control themselves.
As soon as Religion gets into Politics, things invariably go backwards to a 7th century (or whenever that specific religion was invented) mentality.
Yes absolute separation is needed
But
I’m not a believer so don’t think like believers
Lashing people is horrific
You can actually go on YouTube and search “Tehran walking tour” or something similar, and like half the women aren’t wearing any head covering whatsoever…
I don’t know if there are different rules for performers, but I am a bit suspicious. Is the guardian trying to drum up consent for restarting the war? I think some skepticism is warranted.
And before y’all downvote me to oblivion for for being a dictator loving tankie or whatever, remember that the Guardian is British corporate media…the same country where protesting genocide gets you charged as a terrorist. It’s not exactly a place where the ruling class has ever given a shit about human rights.
This was in qom which seems like a overtly religious backwater
People have increasingly challenged the “modest dress” mandates over the past decades, but there used to be a “Guardian Patrol” that would try to enforce modest dress in public spaces. After Mahsa Amini’s death the Guardian Patrol was shut down, and there was a massive increase in women skipping head coverings, in particular in larger cities like Tehran and Esfahan.
However, skipping modest dress in media is a different matter. It has become laxer, but not by the same extent. The religious leadership is extra sensitive about modesty in music, so I think the context of “singing for men without head covering” is the signal here.
I’d also mention that there will be a lot of backsliding of these hard-won victories with this war, as ultraconservatives are gaining a lot of power and legitimacy.
It’s worth noting that Tehran (the city) is generally a little more lax than most of the rest of Iran/* … I’d guess she was singled out because her lack of hair covering could be seen easily from other parts of the country, and they don’t want the women there getting ideas
/* Source: I dated a girl from Tehran once, and that’s what she told me
Literally, there’s an incredible amount of footage from Iran where the vast majority of women aren’t wearing anything of the sort. Do just high profile people get targeted?
It’s common for a lot of authoritarian places to have laws that are selectively enforced. Since the enforcement is rare many people don’t bother following them but if someone bothers someone high up for any reason then breaking the law (that tons of other people break all the time anyway) is an easy excuse for the authorities to come down like a sack of bricks with a pretext ready. Being higher profile makes it more likely that you catch the eye of someone who hates you so it can be safer being some random person too low to notice instead. Though higher profile people also have more people ready to defend them generally so if you do get on someone’s list it’s better to have people in your corner who will make noise and maybe get punishment lessened or called off.
Probably trying to make an example out of her. There has been significant public resistance to the hair covering laws in recent years and the government has made various attempts to bring women back under control. But as with all tyrannical governments, if enough people resist, they simply can’t go after everyone.
That’s a good point, bit like the UK with social media posts
It’s the number one perk of being an authoritarian ruler. Your Authority is absolute and unquestionable. Meaning your hypocrisy is sanctioned and allowed. The rules are only enforced to punish the vulnerable. Whether it’s Trump, Putin, Xi Jinping. The rules are flexible if not invisible until the moment you cross leadership. Then they will descend on you feigning morality.
Everything I’ve seen from The Guardian is reputable.
I know before the war started, I read some coverage from the Guardian of the protests in Iran that was leaning pretty hard into some lurid details and leaving out relevant information that didn’t suit the narrative.
I agree but I wish people would act this way towards western modesty laws as well.
We’re not great, but we don’t publicly torture women for not covering their heads…
I’m not going to defend their bs, but let’s not pretend that puritanical views on female (reproductive and otherwise) morality aren’t killing people in places like the US.
We kill women for having a uterus, not for appearance. Look at the supreme Court’s garbage triggering abortion laws across the country. There is a death toll.
We aren’t exactly doing great in the west.
My BS? This is exactly what I’m talking about. Western governments need to be shamed too.
I believe the “their” there was referring to Iran’s BS, not yours
It is because that is the behavior being questioned, and it was trying to make it clear that I had no interest in glorifying it in any way.
Oh. Well that’s a weird thing to say because I don’t think anyone is defending them but OK.
That is exactly what I was doing.
Yeah I agree. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying though, I’m still unsure.
It’s cool. Happens to me late at night.
Which people? Pretty sure you’d find lots of people doing just that, mostly those who are criticizing policies like the one in the article as well.
In my experience many of the most strident critics of hair coverings refuse to see the similarity to anti-nudity laws, especially nipple covering which is specific to women.
I mean I think the downvotes speak to the fact that the average person is not willing to admit the harms that our own ideas of modesty cause.
Or they think you’re using whataboutism to make it about an issue your personally care about instead of the still very real issue conveyed in the article.
I can kind of see that criticism but I think talking about our own issues and hypocrisy here has relevance here. We do very similar things in our countries and there’s very little fuss about it.
And I did acknowledge that I agree Iranian morality policing should be condemned, so it’s not like I’m trying to defend them, just talk about a related issue.
Then maybe don’t make your statements “Yes… but”, make them “Yes, and”. It makes it less about how you think people should be worried about your issues and simply brings up a related issue as well.
And, again, it’s not like people don’t care. Just like it’s not that people don’t care about the climate crisis, economic inequality, or health care… it’s just people only have so much energy to give. And the current systems we live in do not provide room for an overabundance of sharing it.
Morality laws are stupid, in any country.
True, and this country in particular has some of the worst ones to exist anywhere.
Amongst other things the American/Israeli War of Agression on Iran makes this shit more likely, since in countries at war anybody who demonstrate against the authorities are easilly slandered as being traitors and if it’s a war that they didn’t start then the public opinion is far more likely to side with the Authorities.
according to the article the event in question took place in 2024 which was obviously before the war of israeli and american aggression began.
According to the article the Court sentence came out now.
It makes sense that the regime there feels more emboldened to act in more hardline ways (such as giving the maximum possible sentence in this case) because right now they’re likely seen by most of the Iranian population as “protectors” against the two foreign regimes attacking Iran, both of which are far more murderous that even the regime in Iran at the peak of repression.
It’s the same reason why the most outrageous and intrusive civil society surveillance and control legislation in the US was passed in the period just after 9/11 - times when society at large feel under attack by external forces are ideal moments for those in control to extend and entrench their power and steer the country faster towards their views even if civil society is uncomfortable with it, not least because reasonable and logical criticism against it can easily be painted as being Against The Good Of The Nation and even as Treason.
Like most people, I do not support this war. However, a quick Google search will prove that this type of oppression of women is common in Iran, with or without America and Israel bombing them. Everything bad Iran does cannot be attributed to America and Israel.
Nope but articles like this coming out in greater amounts right now are intentionally being pushed out as propaganda to make people feel okay with America committing terrorist bombing campaigns against civilian targets.
While the content is true, the article itself is explicitly propaganda to justify terrorism.
Yes, I think this is true. I definitely remember news stories about how women were treated in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya before the US government invaded those countries.
My point was that we might want things to be wrapped up in nice packages like “Iran are the good guys and Israel are the bad guys” but that just isn’t how the world works. The comment I replied to was drawing a line from Israel and the US to Iran’s treatment of women and that’s just not what is happening here. I am against the unjust war but I am also against the oppressive treatment of women in countries like Iran. I realize that there are significant cultural differences between my country and theirs but when I read something like this I wonder what it’s like to be born into a system that won’t allow you to sing without wearing a hijab.
I got the impression that this specific case was much more outrageous than usual as she got the maximum sentence for it plus she was actually singing a patriotic song.
I’m well aware than treatment of women in present day Iran is seriously backwards and worse than anything since maybe the 18th century (Persia actually tended to be more modern than their neighbors).
You’re right on the aggregate, but Iran has been doing things like this for decades. Iran was moving in the right direction in the past 15 years but that development has been blocked and likely reversed now with the reformists losing all of their momentum and legitimacy, especially given this past year of war.
Or you know, when they had a fully democratic government before the US came in and installed the puppet Shah which led to the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and brought the fundamentalist government in power.
Iran’s democracy was toppled three times in the 20th century, each time with the British at the helm. The US kinda stole the coup from the British in 1953. What I mean is that this is not just history, it’s also what’s happening now. Iran was moving toward a much more progressive society and those efforts were again sabotaged by the West, not just the US but the West collectively.
On the way to Revolution, things typically get worse before they get better - as authoritarian governments start losing control of the street they invariably increase the intensity of their repression and that’s what trigger a similarly violent response from the population, i.e. the actual Revolution.
The American/Israeli War Of Agression almost certainly walked the whole process back, “wasting” the lives that were lost when the Iranian Government responded to the increased discontent with increase repression.
True, before there was no guarantee that what followed that increased repression was a the public responding by themselves increasing their actions against the government - as murderous government repression doesn’t always trigger a successful mass violent response from the population - now that will for certain not happen because even an oppressive regime is still a “protector” in the eyes of most of the locals when a bunch of murderous foreigners (and both the US and Israel are undeniably massively murderous towards muslims in the Middle East) attacks the nation, so even those in Iran who desire change have to keep their mouths shut since the majority don’t want to risk losing those who have “protected” them from the murderous foreigners.
This is the regime all these Iran apologists on Lemmy are rooting for. There are no good guys in this war.
You definitely interpret people wanting the Iranian people to succeed vs the Iranian regime. Good on you for getting the nuance completely correct without a single ounce of error on your part. Terrific job.
Try to find an actual mistake in my reasoning rather than sarcastic nonsense
This is the regime all these Iran apologists on Lemmy are rooting for
No one is rooting for this regime to succeed. We are rooting for the innocent citizens who were killed by an illegal American invasion and also believe that Iran doesn’t deserve to be invaded illegally.
No one? Really? Have you been to Lemmy before?
Why shouldn’t we hope that people resist the extreme violence of imperialism?
Nope. Just got here. But this thread alone destroys your theory. Not to mention your cherry picked comments that apparently means everyone supports Iran.
If everyone on Lemmy supports Iran, why do you support Iran?
Everyone? Quote me please
Your premise is flawed. You can’t have a founded argument with a flawed premise.
You still can’t do it…. Maybe try to find out how it is flawed
Since you cant decypher sarcasm (you cant seem to make sense of it, you admitted), your premise is “people want the iranian regime to succeed” which is a straw man. You need to do a steel man instead. You have no founded argument because you chose to do a straw man instead of a steel man.
If you have any trouble interpreting or comprehending that let me know.
I never said such a thing, so maybe it is your own understanding that is flawed: I said that what you said was nonsense, while also being sarcastic, i.e. ”sarcastic nonsense”.
And no, I’ve met actual –not straw but flesh and bones– people on here who said Iran were the good guys, as well as Hamas and that the October 7 attacks were justified.
So maybe, if you want to have a normal discussion, next time don’t start out by acting like a massive jerk.
“all these”
How many have you found to say “all these” iran regime apologists? Give me the huge number you have found. Whats the percentage of political comments on the iran war on lemmy that confirms your assertion that you claim is not flawed at all. Surely you have copious amounts of comments you can definitely say there is no nuance and unequivocally want the regime to win over the people of iran winning. Especially when Iran is just defending itself from aggressors.
Until you do that, you haven’t done shit. I will act however I want. I dont care about your feelings, I demand you to defend your assertions with facts and data. But you fail to provide it time and time again. You are a straw manning and have no ability to attempt a steel man.
You gave two earlier and one was just a dude from turkey saying “go iran!”
I dont know if counting is your strong suit, but seeing two comments is not a lot, certainly not enough to warrant “all these”
People are not rooting for Iran, but more like everyone knows attacking Iran is illegal and distraction from the Epstein file. This made Iran look like a less shitty looking shit.
It’s “Turd” vs “Turd Sandwish of Turd on Turd”
Nobody wants to eat either whilst strictly speaking there is no denying that the former is less shit than the latter.
Who was rooting for the regime? Who?
I think people were rooting against the US/Israeli aggression, not particularly for the Irani regime.
Of course! Tell that to the guy I was replying to
Yeah but OP is similar to those who were against Israel bombing Gaza as being “anti-semetic”. If you think Iran shouldn’t be invaded by America Illegally, you clearly defend and support the Iranian regime.
Literally single context / single brain cell thinking. Not a complex thought in that head.
So two extremely cherry picked users = the entire Lemmy community?
You don’t got a lot going on in that head of yours, eh?
Where did I say it was the entire community LOL?
Nice straw man though
This is the regime all these Iran apologists on Lemmy are rooting for.
And how, in your mind, does that say it’s the entire community?
There are no good guys in this war.
I am 14 and this is deep
Good for you man
Shitty, aboslutely.
How many American school children have Iran bombed?
Dont try to give America a free pass by diluting the narrative.
Iran has long supported terrorist organizations that have killed many innocent people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
Nobody gets a free pass.
Cool. So Iran supports and donates to Terrorist organizations. That’s 100% true.
America straight up skips the middle man and does the terrorism themselves. One of the first targets the USA bombed was an elementary school in Iran. Why fund terrorism when you can just do it yourself?
One of the first targets the USA bombed was an elementary school in Iran.
Do you really think they did that knowingly? It was the greatest single PR loss of the whole war for them. Who knows, could be that that one horrible mistake made them lose the whole thing.
Iranian backed terrorists do the shit they do knowingly for 100% sure.
Even if consequences may be as shitty, intent matters.
Do you really think they did that knowingly?
It was targeted, so yes. It was to put pressure on the Iranian government from the start by killing children and innocents first instead of military targets.
Last I checked, the USA has a rather long track record of bombing civilians to pressure government surrender.
See: Japan.
Please cite the part where I gave America a free pass.
Please cite those Lemmy users rooting for women to be lashed for singing
Apparently you’re trying your very best to defend Iran here with multiple comments under mine. And nowhere have I said people were rooting for women to be lashed, my dear straw man. I said they were rooting for the regime.
There will be protests and I’m hopeful she won’t actually face punishment.
You can totally be against a regime that tortures it’s citizens, and still wish that same country doesn’t have it’s schools bombed by outside sources.
Obviously, that is what I want as well, as does every sane person on the planet. But those are not the ones I am talking about.
And what is the difference between them and the other countries in the Persian Gulf that leads Trump to regard some as friends and others as enemies? 🤔
What does that have to do with anything? When was Whataboutism ever an argument?
This is why I’ve emotionally divested myself from anything involving the middle east. No matter who you support you are supporting evil.
All I care about now is the economy specifically getting that strait opened back up. Right and wrong takes a back seat when nobody is right.
I spent my formative years living in a pretty poor small town that is disaster prone where I woke up in my bedroom being flooded. The adults in the house love watching primetime news and thus at an early age I am exposed to politics and news about murders and so on. It’s not that I don’t care, I really do because my parents and having been raised Catholic taught me empathy, but the wars and killings (although I’m aware that the rate of homicide is gradually decreasing over the course of human history) has become non-news to me. So I have been made aware early in life that not everything is always roses. There are something’s one cannot have control of but i participate in things I could change like with protests, even if it’s little. But broadly speaking, I am desensitised of the news on the conflicts in Middle East or Africa. So when the market reacts, I’m like: “how are you guys not used to it?”
Reason cannot be on the side of those who act in contravention of international law.
- Over 120,000 killed by America in Iraq and estimated over 1 million indirectly dead because of the invasion. An estimated over 200,000 Gazans killed by Israel (much more than the official numbers, as those pretty much stopped going up after Israel blew up the Hospitals in Gaza which is where the bodies were officially counted)
vs
- Iranian star Parastoo Ahmadi reportedly sentenced to 74 lashes for singing without hijab
The Iranian “Regime” is so much less evil than the American “Regime” and the Israeli “Regime” that it’s not even comparable.
People aren’t rooting for the Iranian “Regime”, they’re rooting against the American and Israeli “Regimes”, same logic as we are told again and again by American Liberals for why people should vote Democrat because it’s the Lesser Evil to stop the greater one, only in this case the difference in evilness as measured by body county between these Regimes is far larger than even the difference in evilness Democrats and Republicans in the US.
It makes far more sense to root for the lesser evil “Regime” against the more evil “Regimes” in this case than it does to vote Democrat in the US to stop the Republicans because even the Republicans don’t just murder hundreds of thousands more and get millions killed as collateral damage more than the Democrats.
The Iranian “Regime” is so much less evil than the American “Regime” and the Israeli “Regime” that it’s not even comparable.
At least make an honest comparison when you say that. Comparing decades of events by US and Israel to one event in Iran as if it’s not a brutal theocratic authoritarian regime, is very dishonest.
That’s not to say the US and Israel should’ve invaded, fuck no, but at least be honest about it.
Literally the only way to make just the Israeli “Regime” seem less murderous than the Iranian one is by cheery-picking a “from date” that excludes most of the Genocide in Gaza whilst including the recent violent repression in Iran and a “to date” that excludes Israel’s current invasion of Lebanon and the Israeli participation in attacking Iran.
Israel has been way more murderous than Iran in pretty much any time frame you chose within the last 5 decades unless you’re activelly cherry-picking start and end dates to make it seem otherwise.
As nasty as the Iranian Regime is, next to the Genocidal White Supremacist Regime in Israel they’re pussycats - their respective body counts aren’t even in the same dimension.
You are right when it comes to body count comparisons with the US, though, as the last big mass murdering done by the US ended in 2021 (Afghanistan) though the country activelly supported the Israeli Genocide in Gaza.
For the US the “is it the same Regime” logics applies, IMHO - have the political systems and general political stance when it comes to foreign intervention really changed for the better in the US. As far as I can tell, it has not. That being the case, then it makes sense to point at the past sins of the Regime in America even if from a decade or two ago and say “this is the kind of people they are” because that’s still how American political structures operate and that’s still how much the American Public cares about those the American Military murders abroad, same as it would make sense if for example the NAZIs were still in Government in Germany to keep pointing out at the Holocaust (which was almost a century ago) as an example of the kind of people the NAZIs are, but since the NAZIs are not in power in Germany and it’s an entirelly different “Regime” it makes no sense at all to point at the Holocaust as representative of the character of present day Germany and its Government.
So, has the US really changed when it comes to how much Americans (both in power and public opinion) care about the lives of those outside America or about American Militarism?
From the outside, it doesn’t at all look like it: America is still hyper-militarist, most of the American Public care very little about the lives of those abroad and both the last US Governments either supported mass killings abroad, most notably with Biden sending Israel 2000lb bombs - which have massive collateral damaga - to be used to bomb the denselly populate Gaza, and then Trump continued support for Israel, randomly droned boats of the South American coast and bombed Iran with such recklessnes and disregard to civilian lives that they let Grok choose targest and blew up a school full of children.
Please note that I’m not trying to defend Israel or the US at all, I’m not trying to disprove or deny their imperialistic and genocidal actions.
But don’t try to reduce Iran’s brutalities in order to make that point. It cheapens the discussion and makes it easier to ignore your actual point. That’s what you did in the comment I responded to.
The people coming here slandering as “Iran apologists” those who would rather that the nation which is both the least evil and the victim of this war won rather than the vastly most evil aggressor nations, and do so even using the very typical Manufacturing Consent technique of calling the Iranian Government a “Regime” whilst not doing the same for the governments of the more aggressor nations, are the ones doing all the “brutality reducing” - they’re literally misrepresenting a position which is against the by far most murderous of sides in this war as being instead a position of support for the government structure of the other side.
Doing so in the context of the news of a court decision in Iran which, whilst ridiculous, will not result in anybody getting killed, is just taking the piss, especially if you compare it with the workings of the judicial system in one of the opposing countries in this war, the US, were every day the police just in average kills 3 - 4 people.
That post stinks of Hasbara propaganda. It stinks of the kind of specious “argument” that warmongering Nationalists make against those who do not support the actions of their nation. (Curiously, if you look at the evolution of up-votes and down-votes to it, it “curiously” got a lot of upvotes upfront right around daytime in Tel-Aviv and is getting more downvotes since)
I replied to that and then you came and took umbrage at me pointing out how from all sides of that war, the most outrageously murderous is the one of the American and Israeli Regimes (which explains why people side with Iran in this War)
took umbrage at me pointing out how from all sides of that war, the most outrageously murderous is the one of the American and Israeli Regimes
As I tried to explain, I didn’t take umbrage at that. Again I am not disputing Israel’s or America’s brutality whatsoever. Nowhere am I saying I want America and Israel to win. In fact, I don’t. Fuck them. I want the Iranians to come out on top. I agree that they’re the lesser evil.
What I took issue with is your false equivalence of comparing decades worth of brutality of the American and Israeli regimes with 1 specific Iranian incident. You don’t need that kind of dishonesty to say that Americans and Israelis are worse.
Well, it would probably have been fairer to point out the peak of the brutality of the Iranian Government which seems to have been their recent violent suppression of demonstrations, but it’s unclear how many people actually got killed in it because the information we have about it here in the West is certainly tainted with propaganda (mainly American) so any number I quoted would almost certainly be wrong and an exageration and I didn’t really want to respond to what looked like a Hasbara post by quoting American or Israeli propaganda figures about Iran.
That said, even the largest number I saw of persons killed by the Iranian Authorities in their recent violent crackdown - 35,000 - is less than the number of people officially confirmed by Palestinian Authorities of those killed by Israel alone, in Gaza alone in just the first 3 months of their latest Genocide: even what is almost certainly the wildest exaggeration from their enemies about the how murderous the Iranian Government is pale in comparison with how murderous the US and Israel are.
The Israelis just shot a 3 year old in the head
Yes, I’m not disputing any of that.
What are you saying
An American cop just
killedmurdered a 1yo in Mississippi a few days ago.Really struggling to find the difference here.
Yeah but have you considered that Iran is brutal and theocratic? What’s that you say?
Nice use of logical fallacies. Whataboutism and straw man in one comment.
But let’s stick to the facts:
2019:
On 23 December, Reuters reported that a death toll provided by three unnamed Iranian interior ministry officials was “about 1,500” including “at least 17 teenagers and about 400 women”.
2022:
At least 551 people, including 68 minors, had been killed as a result of the government’s intervention in the protests, as of 15 September 2023.
2026:
The Iranian government has acknowledged more than 3,000 dead, and the US-based organisation HRANA (Human Rights Activists News Agency), whose figures have been reliable during previous crackdowns, says it has verified more than 6,000 dead and has more than 17,000 more recorded deaths under investigation, giving a possible total of about 22,000. Other estimates from doctors based outside Iran range up to 33,000 or more.
And then we haven’t even talked about the terrorist attacks by Iran’s proxies.
So no, dear Iran fanboy. They’re not much less evil.
Sure mate, Israel and the US are not at all the most murderous nations on the face of the planet of this century to the point that a fucking Theocracy are vritably pussycats in comparison, and instead it must be me being an “Iran fanboy”.
That very tall pile of bones you stand on is not a moral high ground.
Ahh yes, mr mass murder apologist. Let’s compare how many people they have killed. Because it’s not human lives we’re talking about but data points to win our meaningless internet discussion.
Somehow I don’t think I’m the one dying on a hill made out of skeletons….
There are no good guys in this war will always be true, no matter how much you try to twist it.
Obviously terrible, but how do they end up at 74? Is there a table for number of words sung without a hijab?
It’s based on how butt hurt the men feel after a woman pretends to be a human being.
Is it 74 men, or the average butthurtness per man who was butthurtted?
It’s more of a vibe thing. There’s not any data sheets required.
checks
Apparently the sharia court gave her the maximum sentence for a single act.
Article 638- Anyone in public places and roads who openly commits a harām (sinful) act, in addition to the punishment provided for the act, shall be sentenced to two months’ imprisonment or up to 74 lashes; and if they commit an act that is not punishable but violates public prudency, they shall only be sentenced to ten days to two months’ imprisonment or up to 74 lashes.
Note- Women, who appear in public places and roads without wearing an Islamic hijab, shall be sentenced to ten days to two months’ imprisonment or a fine of fifty thousand to five hundred Rials.
Wait, am I reading this wrong? Doesn’t the note mean that hijab crimes aren’t punished with lashing?
I am more curious now, lying is haram too but the regime doesn’t punish that with 74 lashes.
I guess it’s just an excuse to segregate and oppress at the end of the day but still, feels like some religious people should debate this sentencing.
