The left likes to pretend that only the right are easily manipulated but it’s pretty obvious that it impacts everyone regardless of beliefs, the packaging is just different. Not sure if there are easy solutions.
I still contend these abandon people are complete and abject morons that deserve what they got with their absolutely asinine decision.
Still glad they took their heads out of their asses and that the Democratic voters also took a bit of their heads out of their asses.
They LEFT the Democrats? What happened to Vote BLUE no Matter WHO!
-People who said to vote INDEPENDENT when THEIR Blue lost the Primary!
I like how this comments section perfectly sums up the democratic party.
Two denialists who think he’s fake and a copist about Harris’s loss
only because of the shutdown last year, most of the DNC made it clear they sided with israel, and by extension gop policies. if they resisted the shutdown longer the gop would suffer far more politically. the gop got everything they ever wanted from that deal.
Two years ago, Zainab Bibi Ahmed thought she had turned her back on the Democrats for good.
People like that helped get Trump elected. Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
Harris would have been far better than Trump is a bit line saying “Joe, the car thief, is better than Mike, the serial mass murderer”
If Harris had won, the Democratic party would have kept in it’s corrupt, corporate minion state.
A silver lining in the Trump disaster is that the Demicrat establishment is being shaken.
EDIT: I was going to correct “Demicrat”, but considering that “demi” means half, I’m going to keep it that way.
Here’s something I’ve wondered about for a while now: Why do some voters have to be assiduously courted, and it’s a failure of the candidate if she doesn’t win them over, while for other voters the blame falls on the voters if they don’t fall in line and vote for the candidate?
Why do some voters have to be assiduously courted, and it’s a failure of the candidate if she doesn’t win them over
Because that’s literally the job of a politician running for office.
for other voters the blame falls on the voters if they don’t fall in line and vote for the candidate?
Because of tribalist authoritarianism and gaslighting.
It’s much easier to get away with ignoring the wants and needs of your constituency when you convince them that it’s about teams, not policies.
It’s much easier to get away with ignoring the wants and needs of your constituency when you convince them that it’s about teams, not policies.
This right here.
Mine was a loaded question. After decades of this stuff, it’s entirely clear to me that the difference is that Democrats do not have policy to offer many voters, so all that they have to fall back on is team boosterism. If Harris did have something substantive to offer these Michigan voters, she and her supporters would’ve offered it.
But they didn’t, so all that they had left is what we see: Blame and derision.
The truth is… it’s a popularity contest at the heart of it. Always has been. If you aren’t popular enough in the zeitgeist of enough people, then you ain’t winning shit.
The nice thing about blame is it’s an infinite resource. We can always make more of it. That’s why I blame the politicians and the voters.
You have been banned from lemmy.dbzer0.com
I do think it’s a bit ludicrous that much conflict in the Threadiverse stems from discussions about Israel and Palestine when the vast majority of users are pro-Palestine in one form or another, merely having differing views in the context of being pro-Palestine.
Far less divides the users here than many might think. People letting those differences get to their heads and not being willing to engage with each other civilly is harming the platform.
It can usually be measured by how much injection is done with other topics to Israel-Palestine.
People typically agree that Zionists are doing a genocide. It’s where equivalences are made by pivoting discussion into things like Xinjiang or Ukraine in a lazy or vague way.
It’s that maneuver that typically sparks argument.
If anything, it’s comments and users like the one you’re replying to that I hold chiefly responsible.
Yeah, I have a lot of similar interactions in other topics too here. I agree with the mainstream anti-AI opinion, but I do so in a way many people dislike. From My point of view I hate use of AI for one more reason in addition to the usual ones, but other people think I’m defending AI because I won’t play the Red vs Blue game.
People want to sort the entire world into the good team and the bad team, and I’m sick of it. In any given situation, there are probably at least 4 different sides with their own agendas of varying compatibility.
screenshot taken 08.11.2024
Yeah, I’ve been paying attention for the past 3 years as Hexbear infiltrated dbzer0 and engaged in a systematic campaign to convert its users. But it only really became obvious to the average user last month when one of the dbzer0 admins denied the Uyghur genocide and stepped down. She got propagandised. The same thing is in the process of happening to every dbzer0 admin and power user, and I fear they will not accept the warnings until they’ve already swallowed the whatever-colour pill.
If you want to understand how they do it, watch Ian Danksin’s (Innuendo Studios’) How To Radicalise A Normie. Tankies are literally just red alt-right, the strategies are the same.
systematic campaign to convert its users.
Please, there was a systemic campaign that was outed and it was by Zionists against db0 admins.
Actual doctored images being spread around the Fediverse faking db0 out to be Neo-Nazis.
So whenever I see these instance wide accusations I can’t help but wonder how aware or involved the user was with that.
Well, I think My country should be building missiles to launch at IDF bases, I’ve attended about a dozen pro-palestine protests, held a picture of a Gazan baby who was on the verge of death by starvation at one protest… babies aren’t supposed to look like that. I’ll spare you the discomfort of seeing that picture. I have nothing to do with any zionists, and again, this isn’t Red vs Blue. Being targeted by one group of baddies doesn’t make you the goodies. It doesn’t make anyone with a criticism against you aligned with each other. The world is more complicated than that.
Horseshoe theory was always correct.
Didn’t the DNC send Bill Clinton to Michigan and when confronted about the lackluster response of the DNC against the genocide, he started telling the attendees that it’s Israel’s right to the whole thing and they were there first? To a room full of Arab Americans?
Yes, you’re right, the Democrats and the voters both suck.
One fuckup doesn’t erase the other, that’s just whataboutism. Or in kindergarten terms: two wrongs don’t make a right.
You win with the electorate you have, not the one you want.
People are idiots. Expect this.
If it’s this easy to win them back and the Democrats couldn’t even bother, who’s the real idiot? They thought they could discard these votes and found out they couldn’t. Figure out how to continue treating them like people with understandable sorrow about the genocide in Gaza, or keep losing 🤷♂️
There can be more than one idiot in a given situation
there are idiots, and then there are idiots with power. i never understand the people who protect the idiots with power and blame the idiots without.
Words to live by
“Vote for me cause if you don’t then you’re an idiot”
Good luck with that bro. No wonder genocide supporting Democrats keep losing
Keep thinking that when ICE hauls you to a prison camp.
So its vote for genociders or ICE hauling me off for death, those are the only choices you will admitj are possible. Sounds like manipulation and pure BS to me.
Yeah, it’s because of First Past The Post, a terrible voting system that mathematically encourages strategic voting and makes everyone unhappy.
If I can’t change your mind about whether to strategically vote, then please at least consider campaigning for voting reform.
That is what you voted for by supporting a candidate that said they’d unconditionally support Israel. ICE was also trained by the IDF, which Kamala said she unconditionally supported.
Again: there can be more than one idiot in a given situation. In this present situation, the two idiots are Kamala and… Well, the other one.
Statistically you were more likely to get taken away by ICE under Obama.
I’m afraid people really prefer binary thinking so you’ll need to pick just one side being idiots. Sorry. Thats just humans for you.
If it’s this easy to win them back and the Democrats couldn’t even bother, who’s the real idiot?
You’ve hit the nail on the head for why so many people have been upset and frustrated with how terrible the dems are. They’d rather lose votes to stay center than do anything that keeps voters voting for them
Centre
It’s the USA, there is Right and Far Right, you’ve never ever had anything close to a left wing.
What makes you think they were genuinely trying to win? They have no interest in changing the status quo. It’s been very good to them.
What makes you think they were genuinely trying to win? They have no interest in changing the status quo. It’s been very good to them.
And that’s why they were genuinely trying to win. Centrist Dems are all about the status quo. This isn’t the status quo.
didn’t seem to be bothering them that much. the democrats have shown no onus to fight for the status quo. now progressives? watch them sweat to stop that from happening. the progressives already won in a land slide? watch as they keep spending money and time and effort into undermining him at every turn.
trump removes person hood from immigrants? thats a stern letter. fuck the democraric party
Right, the party that controls none of the pieces of the Federal government is definitely the one responsible for what’s happening in the Federal government. 🙄
that is correct yes. you seem to have a short memory. do you not remember the shut down? the stern letters, the state reps being told to return to give republicans quorum? just because they are not the driving party does not mean they are not complicit, and biden showed no interest in curbing the republicans during his time. currently the democrats are spending themselves to nothing in their fight against their own progressives, so that even if the progressives win they can ensure their doners that the progressives would have no budget. they would rather republicans win then progressives
Yeah, the Democrats want to lose. Everyone who voted for Trump or abstained is helping them.
I say we should foil their plan by getting them elected against their will. Last time America elected a Democrat, the stress of the job gave him cancer. Be proud of yourselves, Americans; you killed Joe Biden. And you can do it again to the next bastard!
Everyone is an idiot. The Dems, the voters, the pollsters, the Republicans, everyone. Me included.
I’m not
That’s exactly what an idiot would say!! grips tinfoil hat more tightly
It’s also what a genius would say taps head
If it’s this easy to win them back and the Democrats couldn’t even bother, who’s the real idiot?
Abdul and the other progressive candidates winning the nominations this year are not because “the Democrats” are trying when they weren’t before, it’s because the electorate came out to vote in the primaries when they did not before. The nominees are selected by the voters who come out during the primaries. So when the electorate isn’t showing up to pick the nominee, then they shouldn’t complain about the party “running” bad nominees.
Im kind of with you, but are you suggesting the DNC would support progressive candidates if more voters showed up to vote in the primary?
the old guards do not want more AOCs or even bernees in congress. they only allow 1 of each in the houses because they give them something to hide behind as a pretend to be on the “left”.
The “old guard” lost control of the DNC in 2024.
that is just not true. i don’t know why you would even suggest that. if what you consider the new guard is currently attacking Zohran even after he won, then the distinction is meaningless
but are you suggesting the DNC would support progressive candidates if more voters showed up to vote in the primary?
No. I’m saying stop talking about what the DNC or Democrats want, because it doesn’t matter when the voters show and tell them what we want. Too many people say they’ll vote when the party gives them someone to vote for. That’s backwards and exactly what the establishment wants.
The Establishment Democrats have a lot of power. Haley Steven’s only lost the Michigan primary by 1% after outspending Abdul El-Sayed over 10x. That means roughly, Haley Steven’s spent over $10 for every vote compared to Abdul El-Sayed $1 per vote. She absolutely was being propped up by both the Israel lobby as well as Establishment Dems and that money went to waste. That money could have been way more useful in the general, but the DNC has been burning all their cash on fighting progressives instead. It’s gotten to the point where the DNC is millions of dollars in debt and had to put up their physical building as collateral while the RNC has over $100 million in their warchest leading up to the midterms.
It is very important to talk about the Establishment Democrats because they are doing their best to lose all political power by dunking on their left flank instead of combating the Republicans. They would truly rather rule in hell than serve in heaven and they’re gonna drag us all down to party with Lindsey Graham. As much as it sucks, the DNC still has a lot of power they are exerting that needs to be addressed before they cause the situation to become unsalvageable.
Are you saying the DNC was directly spending money on Haley Steven’s campaign? It was understanding the DNC chair Ken Martin is vocally against the DNC supporting any one primary candidate over another. That was even one of the points of friction between Ken Martin and David Hogg.
I didn’t stop at saying “don’t talk about what they want,” I said show up to dictate to them what we want instead of just sitting around talking about what they want.
The fact is, Abdul wom because he received more votes. Not because of spending it establishment support, but because the people just voted for him. Don’t wait for the party to flip and bless a progressive, just go vote the progressives onto the ballot, and the establishment neoliberals will continue to see themselves replaced.
Looks like slightly less people showed up, actually (typical for a non presidential primary):
https://apps.npr.org/primary-election-results-2024/states/MI.html
https://apps.npr.org/primary-election-results-2026/states/MI.html
Michigan has open primaries and there was one uncontested Republican running this year, look at the total votes in 2024 vs 2026 and not just the blue numbers.
Yeah comparing to 2022 would be better. I can’t seem to find that on the NPR site, though it doesn’t appear to list the actual turnout percentage, just the number of votes. I have this site but it doesn’t break it down by party and doesn’t have 2026 data yet. It shows 27% primary turnout for Michigan in 2022 and 24% in 2024.
https://statesunited.org/resources/voter-turnout-since-2000/
With turnout that low in the primaries, it really shouldn’t take a big surge for progressive voters to tip the scales away from neoliberal incumbent/establishment candidates.
People could also show up to primaries. People could have been showing up for the past several decades.
This is not a situation that has just spontaneously happened, this has been happening since voting has been a thing.
The reasons those democrats have the power they do is because we keep letting them.
What primary?
The DNC made sure that the primary in 2024 was a joke. Even here so many people were like “how are you go against Biden! He’s the only one!”
Only, I could list off dozens of reasons why he fucked up and wouldn’t have won. (Failed to get a Trump conviction is a big one, for example.)
The whole reason he bowed out was because his campaign was clogging the shitcan, and Kamala sidelined the best thing that happened to her campaign, and proceeded to toe the corporate line saying she wouldn’t have changed anything.
(Easy dodge: “with the benefit of hindsight, of course there are things I’d change. But as I’m currently VP, I need to support my president, so please ask the next question.”)
And then there’s the whole genocide thing, and yeah. We all have lines we can’t cross.
Every state and local primary? Every congressional primary?
You know there’s an election more than once wvery four years, right? And those other elections tend to have a much greater impact on individuals than any national election.
But sure, the president is literally the only election that ever matters. And while you didnt cross that line, plenty of other people who did show up were more than happy to. Only they chose the much worse options.
You win with the politicians you have, not the ones you want.
Both are to blame.
this is demonstrably incorrect. seems it must be the politician you have AND is the one you want.
From an outsider looking in,
Trump may have been necessary to get America on the right track. Had they voted Kamala in, things wouldn’t change. She even said that on the campaign trail.
If you boil it down to the barest of reasons, Trump was voted in because people wanted change. He’s a liar, a scumbag, and a rapist, and as much as you and I think the other side is dumb as fuck for voting him in, both sides realize that change is needed.
Now that Trump has been allowed to fuck things up so bad it seems that Americans are actually learning how their political system works and doing what they should have been doing all along. (Mainly voting in primaries, from my POV.)
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in (Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
He was also already president from 2017-2021. Apparently everyone just forgot what a fucking disaster he was back then.
He had more people to say no to him back then, so the bad effects he had on non-politically engaged voters were not as obvious.
exactly fuck people for voting again.
I voted kamala, but I am not ignorant enough to blame non voters for this mess we’re in. I punch up, preferably not sideways and never down.
Those that realize their mistake are one thing, but those who would continue to throw transgender Americans, undocumented immigrants, and aid to Ukraine under the bus purely due to a Democrat not being progressive enough on Gaza when the alternative is actively harmful to Gaza are part of the problem.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes and telling them it’s their fault we have trump. That they should have voted for someone that was actively endangering /killing their families. It’s wild to me that we’re still blaming the victims rather than the person who supported a genocide. Still supports a genocide. Idk dude, I voted for her but I can totally empathize with certain people who were just not able to do it. I don’t blame them. If you’re gonna have a line ‘genocide literally against my family’ is a pretty fucking reasonable one. No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
what does that solve other than satisfying your own desire to be morally superior? what has materially improved in the world?
what does that solve other than satisfying your own desire to be morally superior?
Couldn’t we reverse this question though and ask what not voting and feeling morally superior but getting Trump elected has solved?
Not voting doesn’t change the party. Showing up at primaries and ousting establishment candidates does. We have multiple examples of it working now and getting actual progressive politicians in place against the wishes of Democratic leadership that worked hard to see that they didn’t get elected.
There was no primary in 2024 though. I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here.
There’s always a primary. Harris wasn’t selected by primary, but she was clearly - as his vice president - a firm continuation of Biden’s policies. People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party, which is what we’re talking about here; if you want to change the party you need to use the primaries to put actual left candidates on the ticket. That didn’t happen. Whether Harris or Biden was selected by the primary, neither were change candidates.
People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party
The primary where nobody except Biden actually ran. For all intents and purposes, there was no presidential primary in 2024.
The point is ensuring that those same voters don’t repeat their mistake and indirectly aid in the election of Vance or Rubio, something that would cement the legacy of Project 2025.
i dont think vance or rubio is either electable without trump backing them.
deleted by creator
First don’t muddy the waters with things like “far from ideal;” we know what she was: a genocidal piece of shit. To some people there’s a maximum number of pictures of dismembered children after which these things don’t matter anymore.
On the other hand, from an electoral strategy standpoint it’s not like weathering the Trump storm is going to mean victory for democracy; MAGA is ultimately a product of current living conditions, and Trump is nothing more than the demagogue they coalesced around. They’re only going to get worse until either democracy collapses or someone (probably a leftist) changes things for the better. Time is on their side, not yours. Vote blue no matter who is only an optimal strategy if you refuse to think about anything beyond the next four years. These people made the price of their vote abundantly clear as part of an organized large movement; they did everything right and the Democrats refused to listen.
Gaza is the most asinine issue to be a single-issue voter over; Trump was guaranteed to be more pro-Israel than Harris, so enabling his victory guaranteed further suffering in Gaza.
Rejecting Harris for not being progressive enough on the issue not only emboldened Netanyahu to expand the conflict, but also enabled the enactment of Project 2025, resulting in further deaths internationally, the denial of equal rights to transgender Americans, and the expansion of ICE to commit further atrocities, among many other expressions of fascism in the U.S…
It’s clear you didn’t read a single damn word I wrote and just wanted to rant. Unless you respond to literally anything I said, this conversation is over.
I read it, I just disagreed with it. A continuation of the status quo under Harris would have been better than a descent into fascism under Trump and Netanyahu feeling emboldened with an ideological ally in the White House. Given that AOC is polling worse than other potential Democratic frontrunners against Vance and Rubio, letting Trump enact Project 2025 is likely to push other issues to the forefront in 2028, rather than hold Israel accountable for its genocide in Gaza—waiting four years is unlikely to have any positive impact on that issue.
Progressivism under a candidate like AOC would be the ideal, including a platform that cuts off arm sales to Israel and supports the conviction of Netanyahu for war crimes under the auspices of the ICC, but progress on every other issue at stake shouldn’t be held back because a candidate that is not progressive on that singular issue is chosen.
Ultimately, there’s nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
Harris literally said she planned to unconditionally support Israel “defending itself” which at that point meant it had already mass murdered tens of thousands of children in so called self defense. Are you really so devoid of empathy and morals that mass murder of innocents is something you don’t care about? Every timie ICE kills innocent people in the US, that is what you voted for.
AIPAC—and by extension Israel—has strong influence over both the Republicans and Democrats, so only voting for a candidate entirely free of that influence will often result in not voting. While the war criminals in the Israeli military and government deserve to be tried for their crimes, anyone who also cared at all about the many other issues at stake—including the far greater level of suffering being incurred by the Ukrainian people—should have voted for Harris to keep Trump out of office.
Far greater absolute suffering has occurred as a result of their failure to do so. Non-voters are equally as responsible for Trump’s election as Trump voters.
Just looking at numbers alone and a majority of deaths of innocent Palestinians occurred while Kamala was second in command. At least make it make sense.
After the Biden/Kamala administration had already vetoed multiple UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire and sent millions to fund genocide, when asked about it she said she’ll unconditionally support Israel’s right to “defend itself.” Anyone that isn’t an idiot knows the US unconditionally supporting Israel’s right to self-defense is just a green light for more genocide, otherwise it wouldn’t be unconditional.
seems to me if israel has the capability to project murder outside of their boarders, they don’t need american defense munitions nor money.
Oddly, getting rid of the penny and leaning on Netanyahu to get a “ceasefire” are the only two things that this regime has done that are any good. It has also given chilly vibes, cutting Israel out of the Iran peace plan(s) on several occasions. It’s not at all clear who’d have been more pro-Israel.
Unless, I guess, we consider that the Harris campaign knew that Gaza was a losing issue for them, and that losing the election was preferable to crossing The Lobby.
I agree, but now it’s two years later, and that same attitude with get similar results. The democrats need to do way better than just “not as bad as trump”.
We’ll see how this all pans out.
Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
I agree and was furious with those who kept that stance. I respected them still.
We would be better today but the progressives and DemSocs could be the change our country has been truly needing. If Harris won it wouldn’t be as bad now but it would all be very much status quo since the 80s.
We have an opportunity because of the bullshit we’re dealing with.
We shall see.
i would argue harris would stand by the status quo left by trump, because that’s what biden did.
There would be no argument from me, that was my point. Unsure if I was clear on the intent of my reply.
If we survive this fascist coup, what we’re going through may be a blessing. If Harris would have won things would not change.
We need to hit bottom, burn it down to rebuild with clearer vision of an equitable society.
INRI; all things are renewed with fire
i am all for forward thinking. starving the DNC until they give up is the only step forward that i see. giving what the dnc wants gives us what we always get from them, republican policies. i dont think hitting rock bottom will change the opinions of the dnc doners, but the voter? i can only hope.
fuck vote blue no matter who, vote blue only if they represent your interests, else tell them to fuck off.
Wraith it’s so fucking complex, simple taglines will not do.
Here’s my stance; if primaries are over support the lesser of two evils. Yes the whole system is corrupt and the DNC is a slave to corporations, beholden to them before the people they represent. This was proven by not supporting Bernie. Fuck them.
Fuck the Greedy. Old. Pedophiles. even more. They’re pure fucking evil, never forgive or forget what they’ve done.
So if it’s Red or Blue, then always Blue.
i voted blue no matter who for harris, i am not doing it again.
you still advocate voting blue not matter who and you also note that doing so gives the dnc the power to push rightward and attack their own progressives. at this point i believe starving the dnc out is the only path forward, as painful as it will be in the short term.
Yea these people are fuckin idiots lol
What’s your point?
They need a snickers
That November, Ahmed – a resident of Troy, Michigan, and an academic staffer at Wayne State University – opted to vote for the Green party’s Jill Stein amid calls to punish Democrats over the administration’s support for Israel.
So, vote for the self-admitted Russian proxy candidate. What a choice.
Abdul said he is a capitalist (its obvious because he is a saudi landlord), he also endorsed hakim jeffries. People need to spot opportunists like abdul and reject them
