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Joined 3 years ago
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Cake day: July 3rd, 2023

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  • I appreciate your response both in quality and in tone. Thanks for that.

    To be clear, I never meant to imply that the US gets nothing out of NATO. It is clear that we do for the reasons you mentioned and countless others. I was simply saying, in much the same way you did, that EU nations allowed that situation to exist because spending less on defense was good for them domestically in an economic sense. It was not a good decision beyond the short term from a security perspective unless the US could be guaranteed to be a righteous actor forever and that is obviously not something that can ever be guaranteed. Treaties and alliances are great. Dependence is not.

    It is true that some countries have taken action to distance themselves from the US under Trump. It is also true that many of the citizens of the EU want their governments to take more action on that front. As an American, I would rather the EU lead the world in most respects as I trust most of their governmental systems to represent their people better than ours does.

    Still, money rules the world and the US has a lot of it. Greed is a powerful motivator and I would bet that it is going to entice a lot of European politicians to make unpopular deals with the US and it’s corporate representatives under the next administration. Despite the EU as a whole better representing it’s people there are still too many instances of their governments manipulating or outright ignoring popular sentiments for me to believe that something like sidelining the US is within the realm of possibility, even if most of their citizens wanted to do so.

    As a last note I would add that I believe eliminating reliance on the US is something the EU absolutely should do as much as possible. It is the only reasonable answer to the insanity taking place in our government. Nothing I’ve said should discourage action towards that goal. I’m just trying to be realistic about how I see that playing out.


  • You’re not wrong to feel that way and you’re not wrong that it is a common opinion, specifically among Europeans. That said, I don’t think your politicians are nearly principled enough to stick to that stance. Some of them say it now because people want to hear it but the moment it becomes less awkward to do so they’ll go back to relying on America for all sorts of things that you don’t want them to. Hell, many of them won’t even make an attempt to distance themselves now, or worse, actively praise many of Trump’s actions.

    The ones that make a fuss now won’t go back because of American exceptionalism but because it is economically in their interest to do so in a myriad of ways. This is why Europe has been content to rely on American military assets for so many decades. It was never a particularly good idea but it was economically expedient. The same is true of American media, tech companies, and financial institutions. It’s easier to let someone else have a bit of control in order to simplify things and politicians love simple sounding solutions.

    Maybe I’m wrong and this is the moment that the EU usurps the US for good. That’s probably the best case outcome. I just don’t think there’s enough agreement between European nations on what needs to happen to get to that point in order for it to become a reality.






  • Yes, they can track anyone with their current resources, but their revenues are all tied to active users. If that drops significantly then they lose money they need to run the tracking programs. We gave them the popularity they needed to get to this point. We can take it away again if we want to.

    We probably won’t, but we could.