I am interested in politics, and even tho i am not a communist, i am interested in what can be learned from it and i also want to learn more about political ideologies as a whole, instead of speaking out of my ass whenever someone mentions communism and potentially say some bullshit. What do you think?

Edit: thanks for all the answers! I swear i read them all, i just don’t know how to answer to each of them, but thanks for all the recommendations!

  • deft@lemmy.wtf
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    3 days ago

    Yes. As much as Marx set the foundation for these ideas, the people parroting these ideas today often clash with a lot of what he believed in. So it’s important to understand what he was saying vs what those people tell you he was saying.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      3 days ago

      Can you elaborate a bit more? What groups stand against Marx while claiming to adhere to his beliefs, in your view? I agree with the idea that many clash with Marx, but a gut feeling tells me we disagree on which groups.

      • deft@lemmy.wtf
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        2 days ago

        My first comment apparently didn’t go through so if that somehow materializes it’s probably better than this one. But I dunno where it went.

        I think honestly a lot of what he said has fallen on deaf ears. Marx was an internationalist, deeply suspicious of the state and anti-classist. Most socialists today have fallen prey to the modern nationalistic mindset. They want to defend their glorious socialist state and bad mouth the evil bad capitalist ones so much they have no desire to be allies with the working class anywhere else, they want to praise their bourgeoisie and denounce the ones they don’t like which is pretty much not what Marx was about. Modern socialists especially on lemmy here are more like national socialists, no pun intended, genuinely. Marx believed in the idea that a transitional government would form and become essentially obsolete. You might hear some socialists talk about this idea of a transitional government but that requires more suspicion and judgement on government than many of them are willing to do. The states continue to amass power all over the world and they often praise certain ones they have probably been conditioned to praise.

        It’s important to note Marx lived in basically a different world than today, he couldn’t predict any of this. He’s also not god, he isn’t right about everything and often revised his own work. Socialists want to hang on his every word but as he said according to Engles “I myself am not a Marxist” in response to the growing movement in France.

        Tl;dr - socialists today are more nationalistic and dogmatic than he would’ve ever liked to see.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          2 days ago

          There are a couple of problems I have with your critiques.

          First, defense of existing socialism is not a neutral process. It’s done to protect socialist construction, warts and all, while it advances. This is not done uncritically, critique is generally not shared among the public as much as support is, because time has proven that imperialist bourgeoisie will exploit any disunity to turn workers against themselves. Breaking up unity is how the bourgeoisie maintains power.

          Second, nationalism. The modern internationalism is very much in line with Marx, and recognizes the right of nations to self-determination. Internationalism begins with national sovereignty, which is why often reactionary countries are supported in national liberation movements when this improves the position of the international working class, such as the strong support for Palestine despite the resistance not being socialist (except for groups like the PFLP).

          Finally, the withering of the state. The job of the dictatorship of the proletariat is to develop the means of production to a large scale, which is the basis of socialized production, and maintain rule of the proletariat, gradually collectivizing production and distribution. The goal isn’t to abolish government or administration, but instead what Marx called the state, which is not synonymous with how a classless administrative body would work.

          That pretty much sums it up.

          • deft@lemmy.wtf
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            2 days ago

            But there is basically 0 criticism of these states that declare themselves socialist. It’s all defense and national pride which is exactly what Marx wasn’t about. Regardless of what you believe and how it could be used against these movements, that’s not what Marx was about.

            The modern internationalism is very much in line with Marx, and recognizes the right of nations to self-determination. Internationalism begins with national sovereignty

            Personally I completely disagree. It’s like arguing to build a bridge you have to flood the river first, you’re making it more difficult. Marx never believed in anything about nations having self determination he believed states and borders were constructs.

            I definitely agree about Palestine but there are other atrocities I won’t mention because people get really mad about them which are completely glossed over, ignored or even demonized because it will paint certain states in a certain light and cause that whole nationalistic mindset to rear it’s ugly head from certain groups here. So yeah they support Palestine but I’d argue it’s more about the adversary for a lot of these activists, not the workers themselves, or we’d have a lot different conversations appearing on lemmy.

            The job of the dictatorship of the proletariat is to develop the means of production to a large scale

            People will be mad at me again but that’s not happening. Like I said, states across the world continue to amass power. This is just not something Marx would ever be in support of.

            I’m speaking solely from the perspective of what he wrote he believed in not my personal beliefs so passerbyers don’t rage at me about this. Marx believed in the international socialist, workers uniting regardless of borders and was heavily against the concept of the state or borders as those are tools of the bourgeoisie. I think it really boils down to, if you find yourself championing a state or defending a state without also expressing criticism you’re not really embracing Marx.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              2 days ago

              You have a dogmatic view of nationalism, ironically. Nationalism, when resisting colonialism and imperialism, is progressive. The national struggle is a class struggle. Nationalism can easily turn into something reactionary when it is done to reinforce colonialism and imperialism as well. Marx absolutely did agree with this, evidenced by his support of the Polish nationalist movement for independence. The working class is an international class, but this does not mean they are without nations. To erase the national struggle is class reductionism.

              As for socialist states, they have indeed been developing and growing. The development of the dictatorship of the proletariat is not something Marx opposed, you seem to fundamentally misunderstand Marx’s theory of the withering of the state in the transition from lower-stage communism to higher-stage communism. The economic basis of this is one where class struggle has ended, and in a world where imperialism is dominant socialist states cannot wither away entirely. They must react to the siege they exist in.

              • deft@lemmy.wtf
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                2 days ago

                Okay that’s fine to believe. But again I’m talking about Marx. He was never supportive of nationalism he was specifically internationalist and simultaneously believed states and borders were bourgeoisie constructs. So trying to claim he is supportive of those just is not true. It’s absurd to say he agreed with that, he didn’t support the Polish nationalist movement because it was nationalist. He supported a revolution that would break up the Russian dominance.

                So if your nationalist support is to a very large, rich and established nation. He wouldn’t support that.

                I’m not erasing a national struggle. The socialists I’m speaking of tend to be of some of the richest nations on the planet who are supporting their continued growth in one way or another. That is not a revolutionary faction working to undo the dominance of a powerful state. He would not support that.

                As for the second part of what you said I think this is exactly where Marx conversations end because he lived in such a different world, the idea of these structures existing wasn’t something he would be familiar with. What his opinions are on these fronts is never going to be clear. But the idea that he would ever support a powerful state is pretty inaccurate. There’s also the whole side that the reason you have Leninism and Stalinism is because Marx didn’t really talk about the structure of a state or outline what it would look like. He believed it would come about naturally. So once you start talking about the actual structure, what makes a socialist state and if you can say it is a socialist state that Marx would support you’re stepping away from Marx and moving towards more modern socialist thinkers which is a more broad conversation and leans away from what I’m talking about.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 days ago

                  No, you’re fundamentally incorrect about Marx’s position, and you’re butchering mine. Marx, like the Marxists that took after him, understood the national struggle as a struggle for sovereignty, the basis of which is in internationalism. Internationalism and nationalism are not contradictory, nor did I or Marx ever say that Marx supported the Polish because they were nationalist. This is reductive, as is collapsing the entire working class into one without nations. Marx did not see nations as bourgeois constructs, in fact he explicitly stated that communism would bring about the end of exploitation of nation by nation, not just man by man.

                  Lenin developed the national question further, as did Stalin. However, the basis of the national question as Marxists understand it today, as one where internationalism can only exist in practice between sovereign nations, and that therefore the quest for sovereignty is a progressive struggle, was with Marx from the onset, hence why he supported Poland against Russia, not just for the sake of Russian revolution but also for Polish independence. The same again happened with Marx supporting the freeing of the Statesian slaves.

                  As for Marx, he never bothered charting what a socialist state would look like, correct, but he always supported the dictatorship of the proletariat, the absolute rule of the working class against reactionary classes. This is a historically necessary process, one where he made the famous quote:

                  We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

                  This isn’t because Marx was a marvel villain, but was because he supported the absolute power of the working class as a historically necessary process.

                  • deft@lemmy.wtf
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                    2 days ago

                    The point isn’t simply that Marx disliked nationalism and I am not saying nationalism is the opposite of internationalism. It isn’t that supporting any state automatically makes someone anti-socialist. It’s that Marx’s idea of the state is tied directly to class antagonism. The state isn’t a neutral entity.

                    So when a socialist or their movement makes defending its nation a political end in itself I think Marx would view a problem there. If the state is a byproduct of class struggle then preserving and legitimizing that state without criticism will create the exact relationship Marx thought socialism was meant to overcome. The question is what class relations exist, who exercises control and whether the political institution themselves are being transformed or merely preserved. This applies not just to socialists from the US and Chinese socialists, I’m speaking of most nations we’d consider rich; basically all of Europe, Russia. I’m saying loyalty to these nations and being uncritical of them is against what Marx’s internationalist and antistate theory was about. But that is where you’ll find most of these people talking about socialism.

                    Marx frames the proletariat movement as international and calls for workers from all countries to unite. So when I talk about modern socialists adopting a nationalist/socialist mindset, I’m not saying that any form of national identity is inherently anti-Marxist. I’m talking specifically about defending the state and its national interests over criticizing the class relations that exist within it. All of these countries have immense wealth disparity and private institutions especially in the manufacturing, tech, retail which in Marx’s time were the major institutions he was talking to when he talked about the workers, they were the ones being exploited and in these nations that is still happening. So being defensive and nationalistic about them is not the type of nationalism he would support as they are upholding what he’s against. That is what I am talking about when I say how most socialists have embraced a more nationalist/socialist mindset.

    • procapra@lemmy.ml
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      3 days ago

      Stalin in particular is just such a departure from what Marx and even from what many of the “old bolsheviks” believed.

      https://revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv4n2/5convers.htm

      pg 233 molotov remembers

      Question: Do you believe that with the further progress of the Soviet Union towards Communism the possibilities of peaceful co-operation with the outside world will not decrease as far as the Soviet Union is concerned? Is “Communism in one country” possible?

      Answer: I do not doubt that the possibilities of peaceful co-operation, far from decreasing, may even grow. “Communism in one country” is perfectly possible, especially in a country like the Soviet Union.

      https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1946/09/24.htm

      Howard: Do you view as compatible the coincidental development of American democracy and the Soviet system?

      Stalin: American democracy and the Soviet system may peacefully exist side by side and compete with each other. But one cannot evolve into the other. The Soviet system will not evolve into American democracy, or vice versa. We can peacefully exist side by side if we do not find fault with each other over every trifling matter.

      https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/03/01.htm

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        Stalin’s views were not at all at odds with Marx and Engels.

        Regarding Critique of the Gotha Programme, it’s important to actually understand the context:

        Let us take, first of all, the words “proceeds of labor” in the sense of the product of labor; then the co-operative proceeds of labor are the total social product.

        From this must now be deducted: First, cover for replacement of the means of production used up. Second, additional portion for expansion of production. Third, reserve or insurance funds to provide against accidents, dislocations caused by natural calamities, etc.

        These deductions from the “undiminished” proceeds of labor are an economic necessity, and their magnitude is to be determined according to available means and forces, and partly by computation of probabilities, but they are in no way calculable by equity.

        There remains the other part of the total product, intended to serve as means of consumption.

        Before this is divided among the individuals, there has to be deducted again, from it: First, the general costs of administration not belonging to production. This part will, from the outset, be very considerably restricted in comparison with present-day society, and it diminishes in proportion as the new society develops. Second, that which is intended for the common satisfaction of needs, such as schools, health services, etc. From the outset, this part grows considerably in comparison with present-day society, and it grows in proportion as the new society develops. Third, funds for those unable to work, etc., in short, for what is included under so-called official poor relief today.

        Only now do we come to the “distribution” which the program, under Lassallean influence, alone has in view in its narrow fashion – namely, to that part of the means of consumption which is divided among the individual producers of the co-operative society.

        The “undiminished” proceeds of labor have already unnoticeably become converted into the “diminished” proceeds, although what the producer is deprived of in his capacity as a private individual benefits him directly or indirectly in his capacity as a member of society.

        Just as the phrase of the “undiminished” proceeds of labor has disappeared, so now does the phrase of the “proceeds of labor” disappear altogether.

        Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. The phrase “proceeds of labor”, objectionable also today on account of its ambiguity, thus loses all meaning.

        What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

        Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one can give anything except his labor, and because, on the other hand, nothing can pass to the ownership of individuals, except individual means of consumption. But as far as the distribution of the latter among the individual producers is concerned, the same principle prevails as in the exchange of commodity equivalents: a given amount of labor in one form is exchanged for an equal amount of labor in another form.

        Hence, equal right here is still in principle – bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange exists only on the average and not in the individual case.

        In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.

        But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

        But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

        In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life’s prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

        Essentially, laborers cannot recieve the “full individual value” of their labor-power. What happens is that the proletariat becomes in possession as a class of the total social product, to distribute as a class. Between capitalism and communism is the radical transition from one into the next, known as socialism.

        Regarding communism in one country, this is a matter of practical building of socialism. Peace benefits socialism, and socialist construction. Therefore, one should focus on highly developing socialism so that it does not fall under risk of falling. Socialism was established not in the developed capitalist world, but in backwards feudal societies. Socialists have had to deal with these implications post-Marx.

        Communism cannot be achieved in one country, but the fact of the matter is that the correct course was to bunker down and pursue the socialist project regardless.

        You cannot mechanically apply analysis from one situation to another. Marxists do not read Marx as evangelicals read the Bible, we read Marx to understand the world so as to change it. Marx was not a prophet, and thus the world developed in ways he could not predict. This is why he never bothered with mapping out communist society, because to do so would violate how we understand dialectical materialism.

      • pcalau12i@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        I do think higher-stage communism in one country is questionable, but this was a very late opinion of Stalin and not something from any of his earlier works, so it’s not really relevant to what most people mean by Marxism-Leninism, which is centered upon what he wrote in Foundations of Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is not some pro-Stalin cult (which may be surprising to hear if a Trotskyist is reading this, as they are a pro-Trotsky cult), so it doesn’t imply a belief in everything Stalin ever wrote. I’m sure if you asked the majority of Marxist-Leninists if the higher-stage of communism is possible in one country, they’d say no.

        We can cherry-pick Stalin all we want to find things that people may disagree on, but that doesn’t establish that there are groups of people who going “parroting things that clash with Marx believed in” unless you can also demonstrate that this opinion is something widely held. I’ve never seen evidence of it being so. Marxism is also not a religion anyways, we shouldn’t be focused on strict adherence to “what Marx believed in.” Marx’s intention was to create a scientific method of analysis for socioeconomic development. Even in cases where you can find a group of Marxists who clearly disagree with something Marx held, that in and of itself doesn’t matter; what matters is the reasons they disagree with it, and whether or not their new analysis makes sense.