Former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, when asked to explain the apparent about-face that led him to advocate the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, quoted a beloved Israeli pop ballad. “What you can see from there, you can’t see from here,” he said, referring to the shift in perspective he had supposedly undergone since coming to power.
Israeli-born Holocaust historian Omer Bartov invoked the same line when he was asked how he had come to view Israel’s ferocious assault on Gaza as a genocide. Living in the US, where he has spent more than three decades, he said, had given him the necessary distance to see the annihilation of Gaza for what it was. “I think it’s very hard to be dispassionate when you’re there,” he said.
Bartov did more than simply apply the word genocide to Israel’s actions: he shouted it from the establishment-media rooftops, making the case in a lengthy July 2025 essay in the New York Times titled: I’m a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It. (He had addressed some of the arguments in a Guardian essay the year prior.) Bartov’s declaration cost him several close relationships, he told me, even though subsequent events have not only validated his analysis but further demonstrated the lack of concern for Palestinian suffering that has become prevalent in Israeli society.
His new book, Israel: What Went Wrong?, is an attempt to explain that indifference. The book, which was published on Tuesday, is a detailed account of how Israel was transformed from a hopeful nation that in its founding document promised “complete equality of social and political rights to all its citizens irrespective of religion, race or sex” into one intent on what he bluntly terms “settler colonialism and ethno-nationalism”.
Israeli and Holocaust historian Omer Bartov is
a POWERFUL Scholar!Kowledgeable about Jewish history!ANTI SEMETIC!-The BBC!
Israel was an insane ethnostate movement long before they even gained independence. There’s a reason why an overwhelming majority of former colonial states criticized Israel’s existence during its very inception.
Had the Zionist movement never taken off, Mandatory Palestine would probably have just become a regular old state like Lebanon or Jordan, Lebanon even has a pretty hefty Christian population right after Muslims, yet you don’t see them in some constant genocidal warfare campaign against each other.
Even weirder, Judaism itself was against the idea of forming a Jewish state without a Messiah for thousands of years, but at some point the radical branch became the overwhelming majority. Orthodox Jews are completely outnumbered by their Zionist counterparts which have transformed Judaism into a complete ethnic superiority cult akin to the Aryan superiority of the Nazis. You have to be born a Jew, you can’t just join because you want to (unless you dedicate your entire life into it, and still with caveats).
You’ll see thousands of comments like “Anti-Israel is not Antisemitism”, but at some point you need to address the elephant in the room. The current mainstream “Judaism” is very much an ethnic supremacy group by design. You can’t effectively criticize Israel without pointing out that its actions are overwhelmingly supported by their citizens because of their religion. Everything they do in their eyes is completely justified because they view everyone not in their ethnic group as subhuman.
Zionism was literally always a fascist project.
This “what went wrong” line is liberal Zionists trying to launder the reputation of the colony.
Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and atrocities like the Deir Yassin massacre. Zionists literally spelled out the need to “transfer” the indigenous population of Palestine in the early 20th century.
Zionists could rely on western media, policy makers search engine rankings and moderators to gatekeep and control the narrative and image of their colony. The difference now is that social media reveals everything directly to people.
I think the “mistake” started with the formation of Israel. I can understand the founding of their state after WWII, and their desire for a place where they can live without persecution. But, the location was a huge mistake if the goal was “peace”.
Dropping them in the middle of their Holy Land? Automatic war for as long as they are there. Now, many are under the impression that they really are “God’s Chosen People” and all of their desired “Holy Land” righteously belongs to them.
I think what is happening today was the desired outcome of Israel’s foundation. USA and UK were perfectly fine with the Jews and Muslims fighting to the death, no matter who “wins”, whatever is left will be all the easier for them (Christians incidentally) to control.
personally, I am opposed to Christians, Jews, and Muslims, to me there are no “good guys” to be found in the “Holy Land”.
ETA Israel is a nuclear power now, remember that when you propose “solutions”.
Actually, the Palestinian people initially welcomed the Jewish diaspora with open arms and were totally willing to live alongside them. But Zionism is a fascist ideology, so of course the Zionists could not live equally, they had to have domination.
1945: A part of Germany should have been disposessed, a jewish state founded on this territory, and this Jewish state given nuclear arms, in case any fuckin Kraut ever had “ideas” again. End of story. Would have saved Jewish people and the Palestinian people a lot of horror. Would have saved me as a German many fuckin bonkers discussions with German bigots who all are so conveniently defending a jewish state (not on their land).
Sorry, but ethno-states are a flat-out bad idea.
Israel didn’t form because of WWII or because of Germany. The big aliyah waves started in the 1800s, and the Holocaust just accelerated what was already in motion. The Soviet Union, the Ottoman Empire, the colonized Arab areas of North Africa were all extremely antisemitic, just as much as Germany. The only difference is that Hitler made mass murder industrial.
There’s definitely no good guys. If you read into the history of the region, you’ll quickly realize that there was never a “rightful” or “righteous” ruler. The ancient Persians, the Romans, the Turks, the Assyrians, the Arabs, the British, and the Israeli Jews have all been horrid. Genocide, oppression, slavery, ethnic cleansing, terrorism, deep seated hatred, and the idea of “if I don’t do fuck them over first then they’ll come after me” is the norm in this cursed region.
thats BS. The turks made peace between a lot of tribes and kept the bloodshed down. Comparing them to Israel and pretending they are the same is way beyond the pale.
This is liberal whitewashing. There are colonisers and there are the natives who are being exterminated. Its that simple.
It was a fascist ideology from its inception. We do you mean what went wrong with it?
Thank you, fkn terrorist-colonizers from the start. Churchill used them to terrorize the Irish before WWII and then sent them to Palestine.
Zionism was a White Jewish Supremacist ideology from the very start and Israel was a White Jewish Supremacist and Colonialist project from the very start.
It didn’t become so, it was always so and always meant to be so, the only thing that changed was the feeling of impunity to push-back from Western nations as, over time, Israel invested a lot abroad into capturing Politics and the Press, into Kompromat gattering Honeypots such as the one headed by Epstein, and into in Propaganda, especially in Anglo-Saxon nations, thus capturing the political classes there and shifting Western public opinion in favor of Israel. As that feeling of impunity increased, so did they more freely, openly and violently practiced their ethno-Fascist (same variant of Fascism as the Nazis) ultra-racist ideology against those they very openly called “vermin” - Muslims in general, especially Palestinians.
They have and always have had, as they themselves say, “Western Values”, specifically late 19th century white colonialist values and early 20th century white supremacist ones.
PS: And if anybody has any doubt on the White part of their supremacist ideology, just look up the treatment of Black Jews from Ethiopia by the state of Israel, which included amongst other things forced sterilization.
This was an interesting read.
Especially his speculation that lack of a clear constitution (Basic Law was adopted as late as 1994 and is not a full-fledged constitution) and lack of clear borders contributed to Israel’s fall into the current state.
Too generous US “security assistance” certainly helped. If you can solve a problem with bombing without worrying about getting bombed, you may start thinking of war as a normal thing.
Failure to contain the populist extreme right is another stumbling block. If there had been no Netanyahu (and his corruption scandals, and the court cases awaiting him domestically, filed a considerable time before the ones awaiting abroad), things might be different.
Ultimately, I would say: Israel failed to install brakes, and failed to contain its greed for power and land. It had too much cooperation and still has too much cooperation.
I don’t know if there’s a reasonable way out.
People often forget that countries evolve with time. No country will remain in its current state forever and no current projection is going to be constant forever. The circumstances around Israel are shifting, but all this means is that the country is set to move in a new direction sooner or later. As the current status quo shifts internationally, Israeli culture and politics will also shift to reflect it. Like most other countries, I think Israel will have a counter wave to the ultra far right. The new anti far right wave will lead to a more left wing government that will seek to undo the damage done by the far right and go after the ones who caused it.
This is a fun fantasy, maybe the US can redeem itself as well… just kidding, they are going to double down just like Israel.
The pendulum will swing! Of course it just keeps swinging to the right and not left. How strange.
It is almost like a powerful group of well insulated people are calling the shots and they are determining societal movements through propaganda.
don’t know if there’s a reasonable way out.
the way out need not be reasonable for the zionists. They are not due “reasonableness” at this point. Justice and peace needs to be restorative to the victims, not reasonable in the eyes of the criminals. The dead cant be brought back can they? How are zionists going to find a way out of that, beyond paying with their own blood? We’re all open to their suggestions, but they arent even interested in coming to the table and never have been.
and
If there had been no Netanyahu
Go back and read about ben gurion and the start of Israel. Its never been reasonable, they always knew they were using terorristic means, theft and murder. They used to be more honest about it. Netenyahu is just the latest in 90 years of these violent supremecist murdering thieves.
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
How is this any different from the mentality that the Israeli far right uses now? This reads to me like collective punishment. The reality is that Israel is not going anywhere. The country is already established and it has a big distinct population, institutions, and culture. You can’t destroy it. Like what is even the thought process here? To ethnically cleanse 7 million people to counterbalance previous ethnic cleansing? That’s just the classic an eye for an eye mentality. The goal should always be to see Israelis and Palestinians living together in peace with everybody having the same rights and freedoms, not to carry out some weird vendettas for some misguided sense of justice held by westerners.
Who would have thought that the lesson they learned from the Holocaust was to Pay It Forward?
Israel went wrong before it began. There is no way of displacing a population to create an ethnonationalist colony in a way that could be called “right”.
and the 100 years of terrorism when they started moving back didn’t help
sigh
Note that several prominent Jews, including Hannah Arendt and Albert Einstein, opposed the creation of a Jewish state in a 1948 letter, warning of fascism and comparing the precursor of Likud to the Nazi party.
Opinion on zionism has moved over time. Zionism started out as fringe around 1900, but now its the overwhelming majority opinion across judaism.
Also, 86% of American Jews (the vast majority of Jews – about 85% are in the US or Israel) think Israel is necessary for the Jewish people. They may hold a handkerchief to their noses at “all the stuff currently going on”, but israeli terrorism, theft, abuse and repression has been going on unbroken since the founding of israel and the nakba-- farther even-- since the ottoman empire withdrew from owning that territory for 800 years, even, at the end of WW1. They cant have it both ways. If they support the existence of israel, they explicitely support the existence as its been since it started. Since day 1 of its existence there has never been a humanitarian israel rooted in equality or basic human rights, and there never will be such an Israel. So that 86% (and sure, thats not all ) supports genocide but lacks the courage to say so. We can call it genocide-lite.
I think survey results show pretty clearly that a huge majority want the outcome of genocide but dont want to be seen supporting it. They love the idea of Israel but find the deaths of other regretable, and are happy to talk your ear off about how its inconvenient for them and how afraid they are-- as if that could hold a candle to whats been done to the innocent people Israel wanted land from. Their theory is that the real vicitms here are them, even as a vast majority of them explicitly or implicitly support genocide, often from existences of day to day 110% safety-- more than any other minotiry group-- where they may only ever experience having to deal with a political opinion on a blog that they find objectionable, which they feel like they can then frame as a bodily attack on their very existence.
What needs to happen is some form of adult government installed in the Levant, not the theocratic fascist ethnostate that is Israel. A violent ethnostate is going to continue to cause global terror and mass conflict. They cant be permitted to rule, because they have shown the world they cant be trusted to do it without rampant murder.
being vaguely on the right side of one of easiest human rights issues humanity has ever faced and writing a book about it does not make this guy an expert. His looking for causes outside to explain the zionists as victims and not owners and perpetratos is weak sauce.
He’s an expert based on his formal education, his extensive academic research, and his long coveted career in the field. He’s very clearly experienced and knowledgeable on the subject, and his words carry a lot more weight than some nobody on Lemmy who’s just mad that some Guardian headline didn’t meet your personal level of confirmation bias.
No one becomes an expert based on their opinions or conclusions. In this case, he became an expert through his Oxford PhD, and subsequent 35 year long (and counting) academic career,
He’s a historian. Looking for causes is kind of his job.
What makes someone an “expert”, what’s the bar? Who do you think qualifies as an expert?
“Became”
There were idealistic, non- (or at least less) ethnochauvinist strands of Zionism through most if its history, alongside the colonialist, genocidal factions. Those less toxic groups have been disempowered and marginalized, and now the thugs dominate.
Some (and I’m among them) are of the view that, regardless of the benign motivations of some, the logic of colonialism and single-ethnicity nationalism will always cause it to reach this end state. Using an example from the Americas, there were priests among the conquistadors who opposed the genocide of the Aztecs. They were well-meaning people who wrote some nice books. The genocide still happened.
Right, Israel is the original sin of the post war political nation state concept, established under misguided but understandable circumstances as the least terrible option among a host of really bad options. The current apartheid state was not an inevitability, even if it was predictable. The world isn’t perfect but it isn’t evil either, and the goal should always just be to do better, not worse.
This is why the current conversation about Zionism makes me uncomfortable. This awkward rhetorical alliance between the far right and far left is not helping anyone. At the same time, there are real and extremely serious problems which need to be discussed, but which are being blown out by the use of a completely overloaded term which has a long history I think many who throw it around simply do not appreciate. It’s simply unnecessary, as there are many easy to articulate criticisms of Israel which do not carry the same baggage.
Israel is subjugating Gaza, and arguably perpetuating a genocide, and that deserves a level of intellectual treatment which isn’t drenched in language historically tied to neo Nazis, and this seems like such obvious low hanging fruit that I can’t help but be concerned that it is intentional.
More concerned with Jews being called Nazi than anything else. So strange.
There is no intellectual discussions anymore and that is the whole point. Even if there was apparently it would be about why we shouldn’t call them Nazi instead of what they are doing.
Haven’t read the book, but the title suggests things could have been different. That something happened to make things bad. If that’s the argument, it is completely wrong. Israel could have turned out no other way. Extermination is the only possible outcome of a colonial ethno-state.
Better to say “has become”. The genocide is on going. We all just act as we can to try to stop it.
Always was.
Theres open repression even in free speech societies too, that if you talk about this in too strong of terms, they will attack you and the people you love. The more they are allowed to continue, the more they will seek to exert global influence on all of humanity. They need to be stopped.
This is my proposal to end the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Egypt will be given the West Bank enlarged by land equivalent to the Gaza Strip. In return, Israel will be given the Gaza Strip and land at least 3 times larger than the West Bank in the Sinai Peninsula. Some of the land will be adjacent to water so Israel can build desalination plants. The Sinai is inhospitable, and Egypt doesn’t have the technology to develop it, but Israel does. With its new land, Egypt can give it to the Palestinians, make it a state within Egypt, or whatever it wants.
Israel wants land. This is a way of giving it land without harming the Palestinians.
Terrible proposal. I have a better solution: Normal people around the world should keep punishing Zionists. Whether that is opening their heads to the truth and move on, or educate them if possible.
TLDR: The more people see how disgusting Zionists are, like you when you posted this comment in another post: “The difference could be the context. Waving Palestinian flags as part of a protest is different than a winner from Israel displaying the Israeli flag. There’s nothing wrong with an Olympic athlete running around with its nation’s flag after a win,” the more they will reject them, bully them, avoid giving them a job, avoid helping them, and so on. I am seeing it happen in my city here in Mexico, the local Jews and people who support Israel are being shamed heavily in public and online, and I personally don’t feel like interfering. They can’t use the Holocaust or October 7 as a defense or excuse anymore.
Interacting with Zionists fucking sucks. Like, you literally said “there is nothing wrong with celebrating having killed at least 72,000+ innocent people and about 200 journalists as a response to an attack that only killed 1,200 of your people” with your comment about waving the flag. Watching Israel’s actions from afar is like watching a big brother abusing its little brothers. A big brother that was literally born with an extreme level of narcissism and psychopathy in its brain, 2 traits of the Dark Triad, the ones that make you a sadist that releases dopamine only when you see others suffer first. That’s what we’re dealing with everywhere.
And then you look at its past, and it’s so weird, how obvious the ape-behavior it is: Israel, which is a White Jew Supremacist project (super clearly now. Mask went off in October 8, when you decided to do more than 70+ October 7s on Palestine), was sooo humiliated by Germany in WWII, another white supremacist project, one that actually convinced the world that “they are the good ones,” blue-eyed, blonde, attractive, sexy, like high elves from a fantasy novel, while Jews are always depicted as greedy ugly ass goblins… The fact the USA and most of the world did not really gave a fuck about Jews, they only joined the war to stop the Nazis, not really liberate or save the Jews as we don’t really do that anywhere, not with the Uyghurs, or everything done in the Middle East under the excuse it is “to save them from the terrorists” has been an obvious unsuccessful lie. To still think all Muslims have some kind of gene or thing in their culture that makes them hate America or Israel “for no good reason. Magically, out of nowhere, hence the reason we must kill them all!” is just pathetic. It’s the worst gamble I have seen an entire culture do. They literally just signed their death. People will remember them the same way they remember those tribes made up of irrational violent cannibals that were eradicated in the past. That’s how the Jewish culture and religion will be remembered thanks to their relentless support and loyalty to Netanyahu, and they are too brainwashed with the supremacist ideology, by narcissism and pride, that they refuse to see that, so, they continue to further doom the future of their culture by making everyone hate it today.
Like, dude. I hate Hitler, I hate Nazis so fucking much, I hate MAGAs so much. I am a Mexican Lebanese who lost family in Lebanon, Palestine and here in Mexico to the USA and Israel, yet I am aware that Jew != Zionist. American != MAGA. That there are good chill cool Jews out there, genuine innocent ones, despite what the polls online say. I am capable of giving my hand and helping those who actually care about Humanity as a whole, not just a single culture, group or whatever. Yet, Zionists like you have made me think and whisper to myself, out of anger, out of control and heat of the moment for seeing something so blatantly evil like Zionists celebrating the deaths of babies or Palestinian children, attacking Ms Rachel, dude, Ms Fucking Rachel; it’s like attacking Elmo, which you’re also doing because he did this…, you have made me think: “What if Hitler was right? What if Hitler was the good guy? What if Nazis, who are bitter they lost, who got recruited by the USA through Operation Paperclip, etc., put Netanyahu there to make Jews look bad and further discredit and attempt to destroy the culture in the long-term?” and so much nonsense like that, and for that, fuck you.
The entire world hates you and you just suffered what you call “the worst crime against Humanity, ever,” the Holocaust, no more than 100 years ago; so, you took all that rage and resentment on your smaller, vulnerable brothers, the Arabs and Muslims, through the Nakba, 2 years after the Holocaust ended. Only 2 years later and you were already cosplaying the mustache yourselves. Only 2 years and the rape victim became the rapist like Psychology says it happens. You have never attacked or done anything to the Germans, and I always found that weird. You behave like chimps or apes who respect the “strongest” and attack the weak to climb ranks. It’s pathetic, and so is religion, which is being used as an excuse for a lot of this behavior. “This land was promised to us!” my balls, it was not. Jesus never meant that, no holy book implies that shit either. It was some stupid random British politician whose name I forgot who said that to win your vote. And it worked so well, you decided to carry that lie and repeat it until it sounded confidently real so you don’t have to admit that you were fooled.
The only culture I have respect for is the entirety of Humanity. If you are someone who wants to see only one culture thrive over others, be it the American one, Mexican, Canadian, English, African, Russian, Jewish, Indian, Chinese, Japanese… Whichever it is, you fucking suck and I think you are worthless. You are not a human being to me unless you are someone who doesn’t give a fuck about borders or nations anymore. They are just lines and pieces of land people decided to mark because we are still not ready to live as a community, we still are an empire, divided and whatnot. It sucks, but I understand Humanity is also like an entity, like a person. We all make up its personality, we are all a “piece of God’s personality.” If we all died, there would be no one to praise God, and if he replaced us with new humans, that’d not be real love. So, we are God. Heaven and hell are what we make Earth to be. And to me, cultures and societies can be analyzed the same way you analyze a human being: when they are children, they are more prone to making mistakes and also come across as cold or brutally honest, because children don’t know how to measure right or wrong yet. Today, countries seem to behave like edgy teenagers.
Imagine a caveman during the first years human beings existed or appeared, when there was no language. We were fucking violent, we would rape, pillage, kill; but even those cavemen realized that forming communities and villages was the right answer to survive and live a better life, and thanks to those peaceful, better-hearted cavemen, today we have cities, better tech, air conditioners, computers, videogames, etc., instead of still living in caves like dumb violent animals. It was thanks to those human beings with a drive to build that we are here, not those who only want to destroy, like Zionists or Nazis, who are eugenicists with extra steps. You want to get rid of all black people, brown people, Muslims, Arabs, Africans, Asians too. You want everyone to be white and the same as you. That leads to inbreeding, though. That leads to a boring world with no diversity, no variety, no colors; and you’d still have the exact same problems you have today, but no more Muslims or immigrants to blame because you killed them all, so, you start creating divisions among yourselves: the tall vs the short, hairy vs bald, those with blue eyes, those with certain tones of white skin, etc. You are fucking pathetic, and I am tired of tolerating pathetic intolerant fucks like you. The reality is that, good people need to grow a pair of balls and learn how to be more harsh and punish those who are dragging us back so much, like Netanyahu. If we actually lived in a utopia, someone like Netanyahu would’ve been punished very harshly by the entire world already.
But it’s us. We haven’t really punished anyone in the Epstein files, or give a fuck enough to at least listen to what the scientists of Wuhan have to say about the accident they had with Covid, which ended killing what some sources say was minimum 7+ million people around the globe, with others saying it’s actually 16 - 35+ million, because it became so hard to report accurate numbers during the pandemic… People still cannot decide whether it was a bat, or an accident in the lab. And if it was an accident in the lab, how come we are not questioning or putting more attention on every single employee of that lab? It’s so crazy how easy it was to convince people to ignore such a massive punch. Did we even interview them? Ask them what they think about having caused maybe 30+ million deaths? That is 5x times the Holocaust, in just 2 years mind you, around the entire globe. We are not even sure or heard if they will do something so that doesn’t happen again, what the fuck? We let them go so easily, so peacefully, why?
Just accept the fact that Zionism is going to die. No way that garbage, along Judaism, Christianity, maybe Buddhism and all religions will die or become the next Santa Claus, one we use to teach good manners and values to children, but then tell them it was fake or forced. “God is what we make it to be,” “you don’t need religion to be a good person,” etc. I keep hearing nothing but negative things about religions everywhere, everyday. They create idiots that behave like MAGAs. They make religious people sound like perpetual Ruby Frankes. F off
Show me where I approved of Israel killing 72,000 Gazans. My proposal would end the Israeli Palestinian conflict with no casualties.
The way you talk about them not having power to resist. The way you talk about Israel being the winner and not talking about any other alternative but tolerating their evildoing. You are a Zionist, and if you are not, you are a benefit to them with the things you say, so, people shouldn’t waste their time with you.
Props to you, this is the most unhinged comment I’ve seen on Lemmy this month
Your president is a pedophile, and you work and pay taxes for him. I rather be unhinged than a demon, thank you. And if you say you are not American, you are still supporting those pedophiles by attacking me without giving something convincing or reasonable as to why I am unhinged. Is it because I write too much or show a lot of passion and conviction which you don’t have because you have never truly faced evil in your life? You are just a virgin fatass gamer who spends his life at home and work? You will never know what is it like for the people who will never be heard, so, anything you have to say is pretty worthless
Why Egypt and not Jordan? Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, and Palestine are exactly the same. They’re the same people with the same culture, that were only divided by colonial borders drawn by the French and British. The idea of a Palestinian ethnicity is a new phenomenon, it didn’t exist before the 1920s. They’re Levantese Arabs. Egyptians are pretty distinct from Levantese Arabs. They have their own cuisine, history, dialect, ideas about religion, and so on. Your proposal doesn’t make sense on that front alone.
In my proposal, Egypt gives up part of the Sinai to Israel in exchange for Egypt getting the West Bank enlarged by land equivalent to the Gaza Strip which would go to Israel. What land would Jordan give to Israel?
Egypt cannot possibly govern the West Bank, it is too far from the Egyptian heartland and it is also physically separated from the rest of country. Egypt has already tried governing Gaza before and that went horribly wrong.
Jordan and the West Bank are physically connected and they’re the same culturally, therefore it makes sense for them to be together in that sense, but with that being said, Jordan also tried to rule the West Bank before and that went pretty poorly.
The biggest hurdle here is why would Egypt or Jordan participate? What would they get out of it. They would be getting a big headache in exchange for a lot of strategic land (Egypt giving the Sinai also means giving up one side of the Suez Canal and that’s a big no no in geopolitics). Not to mention, that the West Bank already has well over 700,000 settlers. Even if we exclude East Jerusalem, that’s still over 500k settlers. That’s a loooot of people, and they’re also some of most unhinged zealots you’ll find anywhere in the world. That’s even bigger headache than the Palestinians that they’ll have to take on. I just don’t see this as a realistic proposal.
Egypt would be giving up some up the Sinai not all of it. The US governs Alaska and Hawaii despite not being physically connected. Egypt will get peace at its borders. Also, fighting in Gaza and the West Bank could push Palestinian refugees into Egypt.
Counter proposal. Israel prosecutes the IDF solders that carried out the Hannibal Directive and killed all those Israeli Jews on Oct 7th to false flag their nation into committing a genocide against a semite population. For 14 months before Oct 7th, there were constant protests in Tel Aviv about Bibi’s corruption. It’s a bit late to send him to jail over that, but it’s long past time to send him to the Hague and at the very least put him in an electeic chair for his crimes against humanity. And much the same way Germany was funding Israel for all the years for the Holocaust, Israel needs to fund the recreation of Palestine, and much the same way Germany wasn’t allowed a large military after WW2, Jews, especially those in Israel, can’t be allowed to control money for the same time period. Their own, or anybody else’s.
Israel prosecutes the IDF solders that carried out the Hannibal Directive and killed all those Israeli Jews on Oct 7th to false flag
Lemmy has finally stooped down to the level of /pol/ level conspiracies
That’s that place that was started a day after m00t met Epstein, right? The place that claimed that there was an elite pedophile ring where they use code words like Cheese Pizza for Child Porn, right? Whatever happened to those kooks and their crazy conspiracies?
Israel will not fund the recreation of Palestine and the US will back Israel. Remember, the article said that pro-Israel donors have an influence on US politics.
The US also supported Nazi Germany until very late in the game. Germany also had(maybe still do?) reparations to Israel for the Holocaust. There also reparations placed on Germany after WW1(which played a large role in WWII, but seperate story) and one of my main reasoning to put Jews, especially Israeli Jews, on conservatorship, is because of the donor strangehold on America. Saying they won’t, is a pretty good indication that it’s a good punishment though.
It is probably illegal in the US to put Jews on conservatorship.
If committing a genocide against a semite population, if spray painting a swastika on a synagogue, if yelling out “kill all Jews”, if bombing synagogues isn’t enough to change such a law if it exists, what will it take?
I’m sure it’s against the law in the US for the government to control how a group of people spend their money.
How about we give the Palestinians their homeland back, and israel can be remade in america, since so many of the settlers have american passports, if we’re giving away any random country’s land to capitulate to this genocidal state?
Delusional. Israel is not going anywhere. They’re a nuclear power, they’re a military power, they have a massive economy, they have 10 million people, and they can enforce their sovereignty. You can’t be taken seriously if you unironically think that Israel can be destroyed or that’s even a good idea (the current population there will just form another state that will be Israel 2.0).
Reality has shifted, and fixating on what should’ve been will cost you the opportunity to get the best version of what you could get. The reality on the ground right now is that Israel is the sovereign country of the region, and the far right are trying to quickly erase the remnants left of what could be a Palestinian state. If that happens, and we’re quickly heading in that direction, then it’s over. There’s no conversation to be had anymore. However, we’re not there yet, and so it’s a lot more pragmatic and realistic to try hold on to what is left and use that as foundation for establishing an actual Palestinian state.
Your plan is Aesop’s Fable, The Mice in Council. See https://aesopsfables.org/F184_The-Mice-in-Council.html
So you agree that the state of israel is a murderous one, and your solution is to give them the land of the people they murder with impugnity and celebrate the deaths of with champagne?
Read my proposal. Egypt would own the West Bank enlarged by land equivalent to the Gaza Strip, which would be given to Israel.
I understand your proposal, but wholeheartedly reject it at its premise.
It involves giving land that is historically Palestinian, to countries that are not Palestine.
But there is no choice. Israel doesn’t want a Palestinian state.
How arrogant. That land isn’t ours to give.
No, it’s up to Egypt and Israel.
No, fascist. It’s up to Palestine. The country that existed before the 1930s. The country where people of multiple religions, Muslim, Christian and Jewish peacefully lived together until Churchill and the brits decided (under pressure from political groups) to sell land they didn’t own to a group with no claim to it.
It’s not up to the people killing civilians, it’s not up to Europe, its not up to the US, it is and has always been Palestine.
This is idiotic on multiple levels.
First of all, it’s NOT up to Palestine. This is not some ideological statement, this is just reality. The geopolitics works by de facto control, not by some idealized notion of righteous ownership. If that was the case the native Americans would be decided US foreign policy, but that’s not how it works now is it? The cold hard reality is that Israel is the true sovereign of the land, and neither Palestine nor any country can do anything substantial without Israeli approval. Therefore, they’re the ones who actually have the deciding power. Whether you agree with it or not doesn’t mean anything, that’s just the way it currently is.
Second of all, Palestine did NOT exist before the 1930s. There has never been sovereign Palestinian state in history. The modern Palestinian national identity was formed in the 1920s as a reaction to Jews getting serious about establishing Israel. Before that point, there was no such thing as a Palestinian identity. The Arabs in the region were indistinguishable from the other Levantese Arabs. The Arabs in what is now Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Palestine have the same exact history, dialect, culture, food, religion, and so on. They’re called both today and historically as Bilad Al Sham which means the Levant nation in Arabic.
What we think of modern Israel and Palestine are both inventions of the British. The borders, for example, like with the other countries in the region are nonsensical and drawn randomly. The Arabs there did not see themselves as Palestinians back then, but as Arabs that were a part of the Arab nation (ummah al arribiyah). If it were up to the Palestinian Arabs back then, there wouldn’t be any borders because these borders were dividing a bigger nation. The British promised both the Jews and the Arabs a state, and this annoyed both which caused them to start segregating and fighting each other trying to make sure that the other one doesn’t get a state. This eventually led to the 1948 war when Israel did end up declaring independence.
Finally, Christians, Jews, and muslims most certainly did NOT live in peace. This delusional idea is only held by ignorant Westerns who have no understanding of the region’s history. No matter how far back in history you go, there’s always a strong presence of revolts, wars, and ethnic cleansing in the region because whichever religious group ruled the region oppressed the others. For example, when the Turks ruled. They applied islamic law which treats non muslim monotheistic believers (polytheism is punishable by death) as second class citizens. Non muslims are forced to pay a tax that muslims don’t have to pay, they’re forced to observe islamic holidays, and they’re saddled with a lot of restrictions that muslims don’t have.
This already makes everyday life very hard, but the exclusively muslim ruling class would made sure to keep minorities down at every turn. For example, whenever the Ottomans had war, they would force entire towns near the frontlines to evacuate, but they only allow muslims to return afterwards. The property and wealth that was left behind would be possessed and distributed among muslim soldiers and officials as spoils of war. The same goes for the places that got conquered, except the non muslim women and children there would also get ensalved. This type of treatment is the reason why the Greeks, Serbs, Armenians, Assyrians, and so many other minorities revolted against the Ottomans and ended up getting genocided as a result. But it’s not just the Ottomans, the Malmuks before them as well as the Umayyads, the Abbasids, the Crusaders, and so on all engaged in similar behavior. You would be hard pressed to find any sustained period of time in this region’s history that didn’t have oppression, war, or violence.
“Palestine did not exist before the 1930s”
1917 In November (October on the Julian calendar), the Bolsheviks seize power and Russia makes preparations to withdraw from the war. That same month, Britain issues the Balfour Declaration. In December, the British Army led by General Allenby marches victoriously into Jerusalem. Palestine is placed under British military occupation (1917–20). It then had a population of 688,957 Arabs (including Christians, Muslims and other non-Jewish minorities) and a population of 58,728 Jews.
1922 The Council of the League of Nations agrees to the text of the British Mandate of Palestine. The Palestine Order-in-Council of 1 September separates Palestine from the Emirate of Transjordan, which is established to the east of the River Jordan. The Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill, in a statement on British policy rejects the claim that Palestine was to become ‘as Jewish as England is English’. He declares: ‘His Majesty’s Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view.’ He adds that: ‘the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eye of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess any other juridical status. In an exchange of correspondence with the Palestine Arab delegation, Churchill recognizes ‘the people of Palestine’, specifically referring to Palestine’s Arab community.
1948 Civil war breaks out on a wider scale in Palestine. In March, the US concludes that partition is unworkable and reverses its policy. It declares itself in favor of a UN Trusteeship for Palestine in a single unitary state. A UN Trusteeship Agreement is subsequently drafted. The Jewish Agency condemns it, goes on the offensive and avows to proclaim a Hebrew Republic on 16 May. In April, the Haganah (Jewish paramilitary), implements the Plan Dalet. Thirteen military operations follow, eight of which are beyond the boundaries set out for the Arab state in the UN Partition Plan. On 11 April, a massacre is perpetrated by the Irgun with the support of the Haganah in the Palestinian Arab village of Deir Yassin, near Jerusalem. By May, the Zionists have conquered Jaffa (which was supposed to be part of the Arab state as envisaged in the UN Partition Plan) and Haifa, causing their Arab populations to flee to secure ground. At midnight on 14/15 May the last British High Commissioner in Palestine terminates the Mandate and departs Haifa. The Yishuv concomitantly proclaims the establishment of the state of Israel. By this time, over 350,000 Palestinian Arabs have been evicted from their homes. The Arab Legion, commanded by British officers, enters Palestine on the pretext that it is defending the population of Palestine from further attacks by the Haganah and the Irgun (Zionist paramilitary). It is supported by troops from Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Iraq. The fighting escalates. In July, the Haganah captures Lydda, Ramle and Nazareth expelling its Arab populations. By the time hostilities come to an end some 750,000 Palestinian Arabs and 17,000 Jews are displaced by the fighting. In December, the UN General Assembly passes a resolution providing that: ‘the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.
Palestinians have no power so they can’t decide.
And why is it that they don’t have power?
Is it because a nuclear capable occupation holds them under what can only described as an apartheid system?
Not only nuclear capable but Israel is the most powerful country in the Middle East.
Israel is the size of Vermont. Its only powerful because of bribes.
No one cares what Israel wants anymore. Why are you catering to murderers? Could it be that you are on their side?
If someone knocks on your door, panthera, and says they will kill your entire family but they will settle for just eating your little girl, you sound like the type of person to push the girl out the door to them instead of grabbing a weapon and doing whats actually right.
You have to start with ethics and basic rights, not triangulation and negotiation with what you think evil will be OK with.
But this is precisely the losing mentality that leads countries to their demise. There is a reason why throughout history, weaker nations pursue peace with their stronger neighbors. It’s not because they want to, its because they have to do in order to survive. Palestine, egged on by the other Arab state, bought into the idea that the one and only acceptable solution is the complete destruction of Israel, the removal of Israelis, and the establishment of an Arab Palestinian state that is ruled by Arabs. However, Palestine is very clearly outmatched by Israel, and so every attempt at pursing this goal ended up in them being further away from it.
The question then becomes, what’s the end goal? To keep trying until Palestine is fully destroyed? We’re quickly heading down that path and I don’t want to see it happen. Palestine is very clearly outmatched by Israel and there’s no realistic way for a Palestinian state over the entire region to be established. No country will intervene on their behalf and Israel isn’t going anywhere. I think it’s wise to do what other countries in a similar position have done in the past.
I think Palestine needs to do what Armenia did with Turkey or what Mongolia did with Russia and China or what Ireland did with the UK. I think it’s the pragmatic thing to do.
A better analogy would be someone offers this person a vacant lot, in exchange this person would own the place I’m living in.
Why are you catering to murderers
But Christians, Jews, and Muslims have been murdering each other in the Holy Land for many centuries.
They’re all murderers. What participant has clean hands?
They’re all murderers.
Human beings have an innate right to resist oppression and murder once available peaceful avenues have been tried.
What participant has clean hands?
One side is committing genocide and massive human rights abuses right now. One side is not.
Human beings have an innate right to resist oppression and murder once available peaceful avenues have been tried.
Agreed. When do you start the clock of oppression, and why at that point specifically? There have been repeated bloody conflicts for longer than we have been alive.
One side is committing genocide and massive human rights abuses right now. One side is not.
They all want to genocide the other, as they have all repeated constantly (today and in centuries prior)… and they all have committed genocide. No one has clean hands here.
All parties have committed countless human rights abuses for decades or even centuries, and still do right now.
They won’t ever stop until only one people owns “The Holy Land”… and Israel is the only nuclear power. Remember that when you propose “solutions”, you must disarm Israel and/or have their support…
This doesn’t disprove his statements though
You’ve placed the same copy paste blurp multiple times now, and predictably everyone votes you down bectyour idea is just horribly stupid
There could be new people joining the community and others who never read it. People are dying. I offer a solution.
You offer erasure of a people. Nothing more.
To the contrary, they could have their own land. I don’t think Egypt would give them the land but may allow it as a state within Egypt.
They do have their own land. Israel has stolen it.
How do you propose to get it from Israel?
Easy. Stop every red dollar of aid to the country.
