there’s a lot wrong with this comment. Israel was created as the league of nations pressured Britain Into creating a home for the Jewish populations displaced after the wars. other counties weren’t happy to take that population and the Jews themselves wanted to return to what they saw as they’re homeland. after WW1 Britain pledged support for their right to a nation and offered to help set that up but it wasn’t until 1947 when the united nations voted for their partition plan that it was decided to decide the land up into separate Arab and Jewish states. the Jews agreed, the arabs didn’t, and when in 1948 Israel declared independence (a joke I know considering their need for American support has never wanted) they and the Arab states were immediately in opposition and have been ever since. blame Britain and white people lol you want but actually they were wonky ever trying to help a people displaced by terrible persecution and who were unwanted by the rest of the world. it seems they still are, so maybe they have a point about that persecution…
Your history isn’t exactly right. While it is the popular reasoning, the plan is older than the war itself, so the logic doesn’t really make sense. It also started before the war ended, so the timing doesn’t line up either. They also started colonizing before the League of Nations decides on that plan, which forced their hand.
It’s all a whole lot murkier, messy, and bad than the version you gave.
the years of these events are historical facts, not sure what debate there is. nothing happens in a vacuum though and one thing leads to another etc. perhaps you’d like to show me sources for how I’m wrong? Jews have been in that area for 5000 years since the Canaanites, is that the colonising you are refering to? as I’m not sure that buzzword applies here
They are historic fact, as in they’re older than what you said. Here’s a Wikipedia page that has more information. Check out “Background”. Notice the date of the letter talking about “the zionist project” is 1902. Even in 1896 he talking about them colonizing Palestine. That’s well before the war. This plan was being set up, and enacted, far before what you said.
Jews have been in that area for 5000 years since the Canaanites
Dude, the people that ended up calling themselves jews and the other people from the region come from the same people. Judaism comes from religions in the area. No one was there before anyone else, because they’re the same people. Canaanites is just a made up term that the jews used to refer to everyone else, so they could tell stories about how they were better, but they’re all literally the same people. Jews didn’t magically appear as a distinct group. Israelites of the time literally are Canaanites.
Anyway, those are not the people moving there. They’re European Jews mostly. Sure, they share some genes with those early people, but far less than the people who literally still lived there. If you want to argue they have some cultural claim somehow, then what they hell do you even measure? They’re all coming from literally the same group of people and the same culture. If your claim is that the term “Jew” is older than the term “Muslim” then I guess you can make that argument, but it’d be a really dumb one.
Muslims are literally from the same group. They follow the same god and have the same holy book (with some new ones). El (hence Elohim, which interestingly is plural) is also the god they both come from, which is where the name Israel comes from, being the land of the people who follow El. They all follow (what was formerly known as) El, although it’s been mixed with other local gods too. Notably neither Jews nor Muslims follow what could be reasonably identified as El, so neither of them have any nominal claim to Israel. Maybe there are still some small local groups who do, in which case Israel, by name, is theirs.
again, you’re rambling. is your point that everyone is one people? because im not sure anyone would agree with that. how you can claim that two religions whose inceptions are thousands of years apart are the same just because the same god was coopted for the later religions, or ignore the differing cultures etc. but whatever, you do you.
No? You said Jews have some kind of claim over the land. If they do, the native people have an even stronger one. Everyone isn’t one people. The people in the region are from one group (which we often call the Canaanites), which the Jews of the period are also a part of. None of them have any special claim to the land. Just because someone’s super special book tells them that they are chosen by the super cool guy in the sky doesn’t actually give them any legitimate claim. If you want to discuss it with people who don’t believe in fairy tales, you need something stronger. Since they’re the same group of people they all have equal historic claim.
how you can claim that two religions whose inceptions are thousands of years apart…
OK, you apparently don’t know anything about Islam or Christianity. That’s fine. They aren’t incepted thousands of years apart. They’re the same continuity. The prophets in the Jewish faith are also in the Christian faith, plus some extras. The prophets in the Christian faith are also in the Muslim faith, plus some extras. They’re from the same inception. Jews just don’t believe all the stuff of the other faiths past a certain point.
For example, if you stop following Marvel movies after Iron Man 2 or something, but someone else follows ones that came after, it doesn’t mean their understanding was incepted later. They just kept adding stuff. They’re all Marvel movies. They don’t become not Marvel movies because you stopped watching.
… or ignore the differing cultures…
That’s exactly my point. The Jewish culture has diverged from the one they had when living in that region, as has the people who still live their. How do the Jewish people have a stronger claim despite their culture diverging when they didn’t even live there anymore? If it’s a claim by culture, the people who still live there have a stronger claim.
… but whatever, you do you.
You don’t get to just spread lies and propoganda, then say “whatever” when it’s pointed out you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Try to educate yourself. Maybe you can not make the same mistake again, instead of just saying “whatever” as if you weren’t wrong. Growth is a virtue, not a vice. You need to be able to admit mistake in order to grow.
"Initially on the defensive, the Zionist forces switched to the offensive in April 1948.[20][21] In anticipation of an invasion by Arab armies,[22] they enacted Plan Dalet, an operation aimed at securing territory for the establishment of a Jewish state.[23]
The second phase of the war began on 14 May 1948, with the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel and the termination of the British Mandate at midnight. The following morning, the surrounding Arab armies invaded Palestine, beginning the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. The Egyptians advanced in the south-east while the Jordanian Arab Legion and Iraqi forces captured the central highlands. Syria and Lebanon fought against the Israeli forces in the north. The newly formed Israel Defense Forces managed to halt the Arab forces and in the following months began pushing them back and capturing territory."
“The 1948 Palestine war[b] (30 November 1947 – 10 March 1949) was fought in the territory of what had been, at the start of the war, British-ruled Mandatory Palestine.[16] It began as a civil war between the Arab and Jewish communities following the United Nations Partition Plan and became an international conflict with the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel,[c] the termination of the British mandate, and the entry of the armies of neighbouring Arab states into Palestine. During the war, Zionist forces[d] conquered about 78% of the former territory of the mandate causing the expulsion and flight of over 700,000 Palestinians.”
No, that one’s on the british for deciding to divvy up land that wasn’t theirs.
“Although the Jewish Agency accepted the partition plan, it did not accept the proposed borders as final and Israel’s declaration of independence avoided the mention of any boundaries. A state in part of Palestine was seen as a stage towards a larger state when opportunity allowed. Although the borders were ‘bad from a military and political point of view,’ Ben Gurion urged fellow Jews to accept the UN Partition Plan, pointing out that arrangements are never final, ‘not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements’. The idea of partition being a temporary expedient dated back to the Peel Partition proposal of 1937. When the Zionist Congress had rejected partition on the grounds that the Jews had an inalienable right to settle anywhere in Palestine, Ben Gurion had argued in favour of acceptance, 'I see in the realisation of this plan practically the decisive stage in the beginning of full redemption and the most wonderful lever for the gradual conquest of all of Palestine.”
I take issue with the MEANS by which the state of israel invaded, and the fact the state agreed with the original plan with the undeniable intent to further invade.
And with Israel’s continued actions after the UN agreed to give israel more than half of Palestinian land
there’s a lot wrong with this comment. Israel was created as the league of nations pressured Britain Into creating a home for the Jewish populations displaced after the wars. other counties weren’t happy to take that population and the Jews themselves wanted to return to what they saw as they’re homeland. after WW1 Britain pledged support for their right to a nation and offered to help set that up but it wasn’t until 1947 when the united nations voted for their partition plan that it was decided to decide the land up into separate Arab and Jewish states. the Jews agreed, the arabs didn’t, and when in 1948 Israel declared independence (a joke I know considering their need for American support has never wanted) they and the Arab states were immediately in opposition and have been ever since. blame Britain and white people lol you want but actually they were wonky ever trying to help a people displaced by terrible persecution and who were unwanted by the rest of the world. it seems they still are, so maybe they have a point about that persecution…
Your history isn’t exactly right. While it is the popular reasoning, the plan is older than the war itself, so the logic doesn’t really make sense. It also started before the war ended, so the timing doesn’t line up either. They also started colonizing before the League of Nations decides on that plan, which forced their hand.
It’s all a whole lot murkier, messy, and bad than the version you gave.
the years of these events are historical facts, not sure what debate there is. nothing happens in a vacuum though and one thing leads to another etc. perhaps you’d like to show me sources for how I’m wrong? Jews have been in that area for 5000 years since the Canaanites, is that the colonising you are refering to? as I’m not sure that buzzword applies here
They are historic fact, as in they’re older than what you said. Here’s a Wikipedia page that has more information. Check out “Background”. Notice the date of the letter talking about “the zionist project” is 1902. Even in 1896 he talking about them colonizing Palestine. That’s well before the war. This plan was being set up, and enacted, far before what you said.
Dude, the people that ended up calling themselves jews and the other people from the region come from the same people. Judaism comes from religions in the area. No one was there before anyone else, because they’re the same people. Canaanites is just a made up term that the jews used to refer to everyone else, so they could tell stories about how they were better, but they’re all literally the same people. Jews didn’t magically appear as a distinct group. Israelites of the time literally are Canaanites.
Anyway, those are not the people moving there. They’re European Jews mostly. Sure, they share some genes with those early people, but far less than the people who literally still lived there. If you want to argue they have some cultural claim somehow, then what they hell do you even measure? They’re all coming from literally the same group of people and the same culture. If your claim is that the term “Jew” is older than the term “Muslim” then I guess you can make that argument, but it’d be a really dumb one.
Muslims are literally from the same group. They follow the same god and have the same holy book (with some new ones). El (hence Elohim, which interestingly is plural) is also the god they both come from, which is where the name Israel comes from, being the land of the people who follow El. They all follow (what was formerly known as) El, although it’s been mixed with other local gods too. Notably neither Jews nor Muslims follow what could be reasonably identified as El, so neither of them have any nominal claim to Israel. Maybe there are still some small local groups who do, in which case Israel, by name, is theirs.
again, you’re rambling. is your point that everyone is one people? because im not sure anyone would agree with that. how you can claim that two religions whose inceptions are thousands of years apart are the same just because the same god was coopted for the later religions, or ignore the differing cultures etc. but whatever, you do you.
Ah, yes. Giving historical context is rambling.
No? You said Jews have some kind of claim over the land. If they do, the native people have an even stronger one. Everyone isn’t one people. The people in the region are from one group (which we often call the Canaanites), which the Jews of the period are also a part of. None of them have any special claim to the land. Just because someone’s super special book tells them that they are chosen by the super cool guy in the sky doesn’t actually give them any legitimate claim. If you want to discuss it with people who don’t believe in fairy tales, you need something stronger. Since they’re the same group of people they all have equal historic claim.
OK, you apparently don’t know anything about Islam or Christianity. That’s fine. They aren’t incepted thousands of years apart. They’re the same continuity. The prophets in the Jewish faith are also in the Christian faith, plus some extras. The prophets in the Christian faith are also in the Muslim faith, plus some extras. They’re from the same inception. Jews just don’t believe all the stuff of the other faiths past a certain point.
For example, if you stop following Marvel movies after Iron Man 2 or something, but someone else follows ones that came after, it doesn’t mean their understanding was incepted later. They just kept adding stuff. They’re all Marvel movies. They don’t become not Marvel movies because you stopped watching.
That’s exactly my point. The Jewish culture has diverged from the one they had when living in that region, as has the people who still live their. How do the Jewish people have a stronger claim despite their culture diverging when they didn’t even live there anymore? If it’s a claim by culture, the people who still live there have a stronger claim.
You don’t get to just spread lies and propoganda, then say “whatever” when it’s pointed out you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Try to educate yourself. Maybe you can not make the same mistake again, instead of just saying “whatever” as if you weren’t wrong. Growth is a virtue, not a vice. You need to be able to admit mistake in order to grow.
“Funny” you should bring up 1948 specifically.
What specific event happened in that year?
Ah, yes. “Israel declared independence” … right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
"Initially on the defensive, the Zionist forces switched to the offensive in April 1948.[20][21] In anticipation of an invasion by Arab armies,[22] they enacted Plan Dalet, an operation aimed at securing territory for the establishment of a Jewish state.[23]
The second phase of the war began on 14 May 1948, with the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel and the termination of the British Mandate at midnight. The following morning, the surrounding Arab armies invaded Palestine, beginning the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. The Egyptians advanced in the south-east while the Jordanian Arab Legion and Iraqi forces captured the central highlands. Syria and Lebanon fought against the Israeli forces in the north. The newly formed Israel Defense Forces managed to halt the Arab forces and in the following months began pushing them back and capturing territory."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_War
but I guess that’s Israel’s fault too right?
Removed by mod
“The 1948 Palestine war[b] (30 November 1947 – 10 March 1949) was fought in the territory of what had been, at the start of the war, British-ruled Mandatory Palestine.[16] It began as a civil war between the Arab and Jewish communities following the United Nations Partition Plan and became an international conflict with the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel,[c] the termination of the British mandate, and the entry of the armies of neighbouring Arab states into Palestine. During the war, Zionist forces[d] conquered about 78% of the former territory of the mandate causing the expulsion and flight of over 700,000 Palestinians.”
No, that one’s on the british for deciding to divvy up land that wasn’t theirs.
“Although the Jewish Agency accepted the partition plan, it did not accept the proposed borders as final and Israel’s declaration of independence avoided the mention of any boundaries. A state in part of Palestine was seen as a stage towards a larger state when opportunity allowed. Although the borders were ‘bad from a military and political point of view,’ Ben Gurion urged fellow Jews to accept the UN Partition Plan, pointing out that arrangements are never final, ‘not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements’. The idea of partition being a temporary expedient dated back to the Peel Partition proposal of 1937. When the Zionist Congress had rejected partition on the grounds that the Jews had an inalienable right to settle anywhere in Palestine, Ben Gurion had argued in favour of acceptance, 'I see in the realisation of this plan practically the decisive stage in the beginning of full redemption and the most wonderful lever for the gradual conquest of all of Palestine.”
I take issue with the MEANS by which the state of israel invaded, and the fact the state agreed with the original plan with the undeniable intent to further invade.
And with Israel’s continued actions after the UN agreed to give israel more than half of Palestinian land
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread
Ah yes jews are the victims