The Gush Etzion Regional Council has acknowledged ritualistic child abuse allegations within its communities following investigations and survivor testimonies, shaking Israel's religious-Zionist sector.
is there some kind of doctrinal root for this behavior? to have so many people involved from across the spectrum of Israeli society would suggest there is some small kernel here that can justify the behavior. anything?
EDIT: should have noted I am looking for responses that are NOT antisemitic.
so i’m not sure whether there’s a doctrinal root in it or anything. i never really looked into judaism specifically, but i studied a lot of philosophy and mythology classes and i also talked to a lot of people so i heard some stories. basically some indigenous communities have it too, the puberty is seen as the time where the “human wakes up” (initiation rite), the consciousness is formed, and people differentiate into their later function just like body cells differentiate into one of many types after being cloned from stem cells.
a typical example is boys undergoing puberty rites that sometimes involve some kind of specific pain (like sticking needles through the skin, etc) in order to give them the warrior spirit, because they get used to a live of pain sothat their brain shifts its perception and they don’t consciously register it anymore. puberty rites for females are less common and typically less extreme. i’ll see whether i can link some sources/examples.
Bora is an initiation ceremony of the Aboriginal people of Eastern Australia. The word “bora” also refers to the site on which the initiation is performed. At such a site, boys, having reached puberty, achieve the status of men. The initiation ceremony differs from Aboriginal culture to culture, but often, at a physical level, involved scarification, circumcision, subincision and, in some regions, also the removal of a tooth.[1] During the rites, the youths who were to be initiated were taught traditional sacred songs, the secrets of the tribe’s religious visions, dances, and traditional lore. Many different clans would assemble to participate in an initiation ceremony. Women and children were not permitted to be present at the sacred bora ground where these rituals were undertaken.
just one example but there’s countless others from all over the world.
is there some kind of doctrinal root for this behavior? to have so many people involved from across the spectrum of Israeli society would suggest there is some small kernel here that can justify the behavior. anything?
EDIT: should have noted I am looking for responses that are NOT antisemitic.
You pose a valid question, but there’s no legitimate Jewish doctrine behind it, any more than there was legitimate Christian doctrine behind it eighty, ninety years ago when the Nazis were doing it to the Jews.
If it were something doctrinal to the Jewish faith, you would also be seeing it outside Israel. If anything, it is a perversion of actual Judaism, just as white nationalism in the US is a total perversion of Christianity.
Yes, you should be honest with us. I note that you did not actually supply either the “branches of Judaism” nor the specific doctrine you claim supports this. So if it’s doctrinal, name it. That’s a simple enough ask.
Jewish people and Jewish doctrine are two different things, just as Christian people and Christian doctrine are two different things.
You’ve showed me an example of Jewish inhumanity, that’s great. Before I posted this comment, I posted another one all about that with linked examples on a grand scale.
All this is utterly meaningless in terms of describing doctrine, not just for Judaism but for every faith.
For every Jewish cruelty or inhumanity you show me, I can show you endless Christian and even atheist cruelty and inhumanity. The bounds of cruelty exceed doctrine and apply to the humans underneath; the doctrine is only relevant insofar as it directly supports the act or is twisted to serve as justification for obviously immoral and even amoral acts.
If what you posted were common only to Jews everywhere, you might have something. But they don’t. Organized pedophilia has been found everywhere, as have people who claim to be adherents of benevolent religion and then turn around and act in ways even that religion labels as abhorrent.
People take doctrine and twist it to their own ends. It doesn’t mean the doctrine is bad (or good); it just means people who do evil also lie to justify their evil deeds, and that happens everywhere, inside religion and outside of it.
When I first wrote the comment to which you are responding now, I thought the question was about the Israeli war atrocities being committed against Palestinians and I wrote my comment from that point of view; in that I was in error.
Yes, you should be honest with us. I note that you did not actually supply either the “branches of Judaism” nor the specific doctrine you claim supports this. So if it’s doctrinal, name it. That’s a simple enough ask.
Ok, I think you know but I will play. The Jews of the New York incident above were hasidic jews, chabad-lubavich in particular.
Can we say that all sects that think that their people are the “best” “chosen” “above” “special” is wrong and we should NOT tolerate them?
Jewish people and Jewish doctrine are two different things, just as Christian people and Christian doctrine are two different things.
Yes they are different things and we can condemn both of them if immoral. Why are we talking about christians now?
For every Jewish cruelty or inhumanity you show me, I can show you endless Christian and even atheist cruelty and inhumanity. The bounds of cruelty exceed doctrine and apply to the humans underneath; the doctrine is only relevant insofar as it directly supports the act or is twisted to serve as justification for obviously immoral and even amoral acts.
Again, this is not a dick race. And yes, every religion and every person can be cruel and inhumane but in the year of our lord 2026 we are witnessing a total out of control ultra religious cult committing genocide with ZERO repercussions and managing an international blackmail paedophilic and human trafficking ring with the most powerful people in the world, including the current sitting US president.
So excuse me if I don’t go checking the Buddhism doctrine to find dirt on them, doesn’t seem urgent now.
Let me ask you a question then. Can you name another holy book used as a religious law that contains so much disgusting abhorrent behaviour as the Talmud?
Ok, I think you know but I will play. The Jews of the New York incident above were hasidic jews, chabad-lubavich in particular.
No, I really did not know. Thank you for naming them. I will read more about them.
Can we say that all sects that think that their people are the “best” “chosen” “above” “special” is wrong
YES.
and we should NOT tolerate them?
Hmmm. For myself, I already avoid all religion, especially of the Abrahamic sort. But you’re talking about tolerating people, and that’s kind of a different story for me: I do not engage with the overly religious to begin with, for multiple reasons. (I quite like pagans, though.)
But if someone is of a particular creed and I don’t know about it, they are obviously well-behaved enough to keep that to themselves. I would say that such people, even as members of sects who think themselves above the rest of us – because remember, not all are there by choice or even because they actually believe – are fine by me.
Or to put it another way, if they are not shoving their personal elitist self-belief in my face via shows of entitlement or shitty behavior, I don’t care what faith they hold.
Why are we talking about christians now?
As an illustration that there is no difference whatsoever between belief systems when the real problem is evil behavior, perpetrated by humans. When you’re sprayed by a skunk, do you really give a shit how wide the stripe down its back?
Also, I left Christianity many years ago, but before that I was deep into it for decades and studied a lot, so it’s always where I start when I think about religions filled with self-righteous pricks who twist dogma and doctrine to justify evil.
in the year of our lord 2026
Not my lord. I’d rather have tertiary syphilis, thanks.
we are witnessing a total out of control ultra religious cult committing genocide with ZERO repercussions and managing an international blackmail paedophilic and human trafficking ring with the most powerful people in the world, including the current sitting US president.
All of that is 100% true, inasmuch as I myself know or would argue. But now that you’ve responded, I’m pretty sure our difference lies in your willingness (or my unwillingness, take your pick) to extrapolate outwards from the personal identity of the perpetrators of those great evils to tar vast swathes of humans with the same brush by simple virtue of membership. That’s not my thing. I see an asshole, I don’t go looking past their shit to see if other assholes match.
At the deepest level that is, at best, a self-protective behavior and outlook, and you’ll see it the most when people have personally been eviscerated by evil in the name of a god.
For myself I have focused more on getting the myth of Christianity out of my system, but I have no judgement for those who are seared by the ongoing abuses and control of organized religion, especially if they grew up in or around that.
Let me ask you a question then. Can you name another holy book used as a religious law that contains so much disgusting abhorrent behaviour as the Talmud?
That is an excellent question, and the truth is that I do not know, because my knowledge of the Talmud is superficial at best. Coming from Christianity, and such gems as the early fathers, such as Tertullian who thought women do not have souls, I’d say if you put them side by side they’d probably end up within spitting range of each other. I usually did not go into the source language for the repulsive bits, because that’s not what I was in it for, but they are certainly there. The Quran is also not a shining example of how to behave toward certain members of society, so we’re back to the whole Abrahamic thing.
what fucking religion has a book like this?!
That’s not religion, that’s self-delusion. My question for you would be whether that particular line, and those like it, are still being used to justify the foul and horrific sexual use of children, and by whom. If it is and they are, they should be lined up and shot, NOT for their religion but for their unholy use of the bodies of innocent children, AND their abhorrent use of religion to justify and self-excuse those vast evils. (If that’s the actual belief and practice of the sect you mentioned by name, then I genuinely did not know and I will stand corrected.)
You’ve clearly thought this through (which is more than I can say for the usual fare here, so thank you) and we’re not disagreeing on facts, as far as I can tell. It’s the context in which I personally hold those facts contrasted with the personal context in which you hold those facts, and I would not take my own position out further than I have. People do tremendous evil. For myself, I think all religions have some measure of repugnant shit, especially the Abrahamic variety.
Yet if someone holds a personal faith that lifts them up, lifts those around them up, that helps them to live in a hard and brutal world, then I personally won’t tar them with the same brush that I absolutely reserve in full force for the perpetrators of those evils you named. But you gotta do you, and that’s not just a blithe, easy statement. This is something I had to fight through to clarity for myself, it took years, and I expect anyone deeply fucked by religion has to do the same. Maybe that’s you as well.
So honestly, if I were to ask you one thing it would be this: look at your position, what you’ve written, and ask yourself what the end result is in terms of lifting yourself and your inner world up in such a way that you are no longer crushed by the evils you see around you, and which you may have even suffered yourself. Or to put it another way, “If I decide this is how I want my worldview to be, will the way in which I am viewing the vast evil around me advance my well-being or improve my life in any way?” When I left Christianity after decades, that was what I had to ask myself. It was quite possibly one of the most important questions I have ever been asked. So that’s what I am asking you as well: not for public discussion, but for you to consider privately, over time, along with the well-stated facts of your case.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, and if I have provided offense in any way, I apologize. That’s not my goal, and I hope that is self-apparent.
EDITED TO ADD that I looked up that sect, Chabad-Lubavitch, and beyond the mattress thing being discredited I honestly did not find any mention of pedophilia in regard to that sect. Trump and Putin both apparently love them, though, which is not in their favor. I will continue to look. If you want to toss me some links I will read them.
First of all thank you for taking the time. I really enjoyed reading your answer. I know I’m very abrasive sometimes and usually at this point people start calling me antisemite or bot, so I appreciate it.
Or to put it another way, if they are not shoving their personal elitist self-belief in my face via shows of entitlement or shitty behaviour, I don’t care what faith they hold.
Absolutely. I couldn’t said that better.
But now that you’ve responded, I’m pretty sure our difference lies in your willingness (or my unwillingness, take your pick) to extrapolate outwards from the personal identity of the perpetrators of those great evils to tar vast swathes of humans with the same brush by simple virtue of membership.
No, I’m not willing to bundle everyone by virtue of membership, no. But I recognise these evils are the symptoms of a root cause that, perhaps doesn’t encompass everyone, but it’s very close to power and touches so many organisations and entities, I’m not sure what would be left if we throw away the rotten part.
In general I would advocate for much much more stringent regulation over religions, cults, sects, faiths, lodges etc…
I agree with pretty much everything you said but I would like to answer the last bit.
So honestly, if I were to ask you one thing it would be this: look at your position, what you’ve written, and ask yourself what the end result is in terms of lifting yourself and your inner world up in such a way that you are no longer crushed by the evils you see around you, and which you may have even suffered yourself. Or to put it another way, “If I decide this is how I want my worldview to be, will the way in which I am viewing the vast evil around me advance my well-being or improve my life in any way?”
No, it doesn’t, it absolutely does not advance my well-being or improve my life in any way. Actually the opposite.
But it just doesn’t matter, perhaps we should stop focusing and acting solely on the base of what benefits ourselves, this is a delusional egocentric system. We learned that, regardless of what it is true or false, right or wrong, if it benefits us we should do it and if it harms us we should refuse it. Nothing else really matter.
I don’t agree. Perhaps if we keep pointing at stuff and see evil we should ask if we are in hell not if we are wrong. It’s a bummer, a party pooper, I know, but sometimes I like to remind everyone that we do are in extreme danger, actual code red, alarm alarm stuff. Shit is not going well at all and we are NOT doing anything about it.
To conclude on the topic of Talmudic Judaism, think about this: Jesus in the Talmud is boiling in excrements. The Jewish Passover celebration is the celebration of the death of Jesus. This is why you can see on YouTube israeli (even kids) spitting and abusing Christians going to Israel. Believe what they say.
Ah, what was Jesus’s sin? Saying we are all the same.
Thanks for the chat
P.S. This may also contribute. It’s something by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn I read probably forty years ago, and it put into words what I had been suspecting anyway, that organizations are NOT inscrutable entities made of their own special something but merely groups of individual humans.
Thus, when an organization does something shitty, it’s because some shitty individuals inside it think it’s a grand idea and the head shit signs off on it and then at that point, all the individuals inside that organization are then faced with a choice to either ride along or get off altogether, because there are rarely any choices in between those two poles. But there’s always a subset who would gladly throw a wrench in the works if they thought it would make any difference, because they think it’s ass and they resent it all, never having wanted it to begin with.
So I don’t believe in organizations anymore, only the individuals within it. And the line between good and evil crosses not between people, but across the heart of every person. That’s what I got from Solzhenitsyn.
"It was granted me to carry away from my prison years on my bent back, which nearly broke beneath its load, this essential experience: how a human being becomes evil and how good…
Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains… an unuprooted small corner of evil. "
No, it doesn’t, it absolutely does not advance my well-being or improve my life in any way. Actually the opposite. But it just doesn’t matter, perhaps we should stop focusing and acting solely on the base of what benefits ourselves, this is a delusional egocentric system. We learned that, regardless of what it is true or false, right or wrong, if it benefits us we should do it and if it harms us we should refuse it. Nothing else really matter.
I don’t agree.
No, you’re right, and it’s a failure on my part to frame the concept better. For myself, I believe that actions follow thoughts. So if I want to make or be part of positive change, first I have to lift my own thoughts. And how can I truly see someone else in their reality, as they really are, if I won’t even see myself as I really am?
What I found for myself was that I can’t wallow in thoughts that involve huge, vast conspiracies of evil because 1) it’s factually not true that every person in any given org supports everything that org does, especially if that org is doing evil shit because evil always involves coercion; and 2) it’s a thought structure that is overwhelming to the point of personal paralysis.
So when I wrote that, I was speaking solely of the inner world, of examining and even changing the way you hold your beliefs about evil if that current belief system doesn’t lift you up in a way that makes you a better person, NOT tangible externals and looking away from them because hey, fuck you I got mine. You’re right, that’s shit. If we have a conscience, we’re either using it OR we are deluding ourselves about having one.
Shit is not going well at all and we are NOT doing anything about it.
That’s one of the things that changing my own inner world got me to see and understand differently. There are a LOT of people doing something about it, in every little way they know how. Look around: it’s chaos. If everyone were cooperating with the powers-that-be it would not now be chaotic. But chaos is the kitchen of change.
Or to put it another (very hypothetical) way, if all you can see are the vast hordes of wrongdoers marching in lockstep, you will never see the less-noticeable individuals like me (hypothetically) flattening their tires and (hypothetically) sugaring their gas tanks behind their backs while they march.
We can all do something. I genuinely believe that. Even if it’s only getting in the way. There’s only one guy that gets to be editor of the NY Times and it’s not me, so they’re never going to tell the truth about full-spectrum resistance or direct action: I should stop waiting for public acknowledgement.
But if I see my thing I can do, and I do it, that lifts me and it lifts my world. Gotta see it first, though, and that requires a belief system that allows for seeing it. And that’s why I asked you the question I did. Thank you as well for a bracing chat. You’re a good person. Don’t stop.
Chabad are mostly notable for being less insular than most Orthodox sects, doing a lot of outreach to secular/Reform/Conservative Jews, and thus ending up as one of the big names in overseas funding for Zionism in the modern day. They’re really the mainstream face of Orthodox Judaism, and the fucked up abuse scandals in Israel have tended to come from fringe, Messianic sects that the state’s Rabbinate and larger organizations like Chabad can at least pretend to distance themselves from.
As for the Talmud, it’s weird how much it tends to get played up in antisemitic narratives, because in my (very limited) experience it is really, incredibly dry and mostly boring. It’s like reading Reddit comments on every page of the scriptures, where 5 incredibly pedantic nerds are arguing over what exactly counts as a fork, or what a story about a wage dispute is supposed to say about contract law and social hierarchy. There’s a predictably authoritarian “just listen to your boss and your rabbi” bent to the morals it extracts, but at the end of the day it’s a couple thousand pages of mundane, day-to-day legal doctrine. Anyone can learn Talmud, it’s just a lot of effort, and like a lot of difficult religious texts, it mostly ends up being a source local authority figures can pull out to settle arguments in their favor.
Thank you for this context. I had actually suspected as much, especially in regard to how people use the Talmud for prooftexting (selectively pulling bits out of a text with which to authoritatively settle disputes) because that’s exactly how the Christian bible is used by the same sort of people, But as I said above I’m not overly familiar with the Talmud, so this tracks. And yeah, it is really dry reading! I did try a few times, lol.
But it’s depressing how similar some people are in their tactics to suppress real questions and debate, even across faiths.
There’s a lot of government and religious NGO money funneled around Israel for religious schools and student stipends, so any unscrupulous rabbis looking to start an abusive cult have plenty of opportunities handed to them. It’s really not unlike the various Christian cults that sprouted up on compounds in the American West, taking advantage of cheap resources and isolation tactics to build organizations that beat the shit out of children or do whatever else they want.
Edit: I think the settlements in particular create a similar physical dynamic, where living on stolen land ringed with fences and security checkpoints allows leaders to create an insular community that keeps victims in and accountability out. Even twenty minutes’ drive from Jerusalem, no one gets into a settlement without arranged permission, and a housewife with no car may as well be stranded out on the prairie.
They believe they’re better than everybody else, and that most of the rest isn’t even fully human. Just like most of other destructive ideologies in history.
The ancient Greeks and Romans certainly thought this sort of behavior was typical and foundational to Christian and Jewish religious practices and fought hard to liberate people from the clutches of those religious cults in antiquity.
Funny thing: the blood libel (the allegation that a group was murdering and cannibalizing children) was originally a Roman accusation against the early Christians. It was only later used by the Christians against the Jews.
Judaism as a whole is one big cult, people just ignore it because it doesn’t affect most of us but if you went into Talmud and other traditional jewish writings you’d find they’re just divorced from reality because of their traditions. I’ll give you one example, and go read yourself if you want more
is there some kind of doctrinal root for this behavior? to have so many people involved from across the spectrum of Israeli society would suggest there is some small kernel here that can justify the behavior. anything?
EDIT: should have noted I am looking for responses that are NOT antisemitic.
so i’m not sure whether there’s a doctrinal root in it or anything. i never really looked into judaism specifically, but i studied a lot of philosophy and mythology classes and i also talked to a lot of people so i heard some stories. basically some indigenous communities have it too, the puberty is seen as the time where the “human wakes up” (initiation rite), the consciousness is formed, and people differentiate into their later function just like body cells differentiate into one of many types after being cloned from stem cells.
a typical example is boys undergoing puberty rites that sometimes involve some kind of specific pain (like sticking needles through the skin, etc) in order to give them the warrior spirit, because they get used to a live of pain sothat their brain shifts its perception and they don’t consciously register it anymore. puberty rites for females are less common and typically less extreme. i’ll see whether i can link some sources/examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bora_(Australian)
just one example but there’s countless others from all over the world.
uh. well. it is canon if that helps. https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/violence-against-women-in-the-hebrew-bible
You pose a valid question, but there’s no legitimate Jewish doctrine behind it, any more than there was legitimate Christian doctrine behind it eighty, ninety years ago when the Nazis were doing it to the Jews.
This is not so much a religious question as it is a problem of human nature. When your own national leader makes it clear that even the worst of human behavior is acceptable when you can plead patriotism in its defense, you will find that tacitly given permission magnified beyond your wildest imagination in short order as people with darkness inside them realize there really is nothing holding them back from having a go themselves.
If it were something doctrinal to the Jewish faith, you would also be seeing it outside Israel. If anything, it is a perversion of actual Judaism, just as white nationalism in the US is a total perversion of Christianity.
If you’ve never read it before, Hannah Arendt’s Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil is a great read.
thank you for a really thoughtful response!
Mmm, some practices are doctrinal in some branches of Judaism. Just read a comment below.
Did we forgot about this?
If we want to seriously talk about religions and what is and is not acceptable in our society we need to be honest with ourselves.
Yes, you should be honest with us. I note that you did not actually supply either the “branches of Judaism” nor the specific doctrine you claim supports this. So if it’s doctrinal, name it. That’s a simple enough ask.
Jewish people and Jewish doctrine are two different things, just as Christian people and Christian doctrine are two different things.
You’ve showed me an example of Jewish inhumanity, that’s great. Before I posted this comment, I posted another one all about that with linked examples on a grand scale.
All this is utterly meaningless in terms of describing doctrine, not just for Judaism but for every faith.
For every Jewish cruelty or inhumanity you show me, I can show you endless Christian and even atheist cruelty and inhumanity. The bounds of cruelty exceed doctrine and apply to the humans underneath; the doctrine is only relevant insofar as it directly supports the act or is twisted to serve as justification for obviously immoral and even amoral acts.
If what you posted were common only to Jews everywhere, you might have something. But they don’t. Organized pedophilia has been found everywhere, as have people who claim to be adherents of benevolent religion and then turn around and act in ways even that religion labels as abhorrent.
People take doctrine and twist it to their own ends. It doesn’t mean the doctrine is bad (or good); it just means people who do evil also lie to justify their evil deeds, and that happens everywhere, inside religion and outside of it.
When I first wrote the comment to which you are responding now, I thought the question was about the Israeli war atrocities being committed against Palestinians and I wrote my comment from that point of view; in that I was in error.
Ok, I think you know but I will play. The Jews of the New York incident above were hasidic jews, chabad-lubavich in particular.
Can we say that all sects that think that their people are the “best” “chosen” “above” “special” is wrong and we should NOT tolerate them?
Yes they are different things and we can condemn both of them if immoral. Why are we talking about christians now?
Again, this is not a dick race. And yes, every religion and every person can be cruel and inhumane but in the year of our lord 2026 we are witnessing a total out of control ultra religious cult committing genocide with ZERO repercussions and managing an international blackmail paedophilic and human trafficking ring with the most powerful people in the world, including the current sitting US president.
So excuse me if I don’t go checking the Buddhism doctrine to find dirt on them, doesn’t seem urgent now.
Let me ask you a question then. Can you name another holy book used as a religious law that contains so much disgusting abhorrent behaviour as the Talmud?
Reading the Talmud
what fucking religion has a book like this?!
No, I really did not know. Thank you for naming them. I will read more about them.
YES.
Hmmm. For myself, I already avoid all religion, especially of the Abrahamic sort. But you’re talking about tolerating people, and that’s kind of a different story for me: I do not engage with the overly religious to begin with, for multiple reasons. (I quite like pagans, though.)
But if someone is of a particular creed and I don’t know about it, they are obviously well-behaved enough to keep that to themselves. I would say that such people, even as members of sects who think themselves above the rest of us – because remember, not all are there by choice or even because they actually believe – are fine by me.
Or to put it another way, if they are not shoving their personal elitist self-belief in my face via shows of entitlement or shitty behavior, I don’t care what faith they hold.
As an illustration that there is no difference whatsoever between belief systems when the real problem is evil behavior, perpetrated by humans. When you’re sprayed by a skunk, do you really give a shit how wide the stripe down its back?
Also, I left Christianity many years ago, but before that I was deep into it for decades and studied a lot, so it’s always where I start when I think about religions filled with self-righteous pricks who twist dogma and doctrine to justify evil.
Not my lord. I’d rather have tertiary syphilis, thanks.
All of that is 100% true, inasmuch as I myself know or would argue. But now that you’ve responded, I’m pretty sure our difference lies in your willingness (or my unwillingness, take your pick) to extrapolate outwards from the personal identity of the perpetrators of those great evils to tar vast swathes of humans with the same brush by simple virtue of membership. That’s not my thing. I see an asshole, I don’t go looking past their shit to see if other assholes match.
At the deepest level that is, at best, a self-protective behavior and outlook, and you’ll see it the most when people have personally been eviscerated by evil in the name of a god.
For myself I have focused more on getting the myth of Christianity out of my system, but I have no judgement for those who are seared by the ongoing abuses and control of organized religion, especially if they grew up in or around that.
That is an excellent question, and the truth is that I do not know, because my knowledge of the Talmud is superficial at best. Coming from Christianity, and such gems as the early fathers, such as Tertullian who thought women do not have souls, I’d say if you put them side by side they’d probably end up within spitting range of each other. I usually did not go into the source language for the repulsive bits, because that’s not what I was in it for, but they are certainly there. The Quran is also not a shining example of how to behave toward certain members of society, so we’re back to the whole Abrahamic thing.
That’s not religion, that’s self-delusion. My question for you would be whether that particular line, and those like it, are still being used to justify the foul and horrific sexual use of children, and by whom. If it is and they are, they should be lined up and shot, NOT for their religion but for their unholy use of the bodies of innocent children, AND their abhorrent use of religion to justify and self-excuse those vast evils. (If that’s the actual belief and practice of the sect you mentioned by name, then I genuinely did not know and I will stand corrected.)
You’ve clearly thought this through (which is more than I can say for the usual fare here, so thank you) and we’re not disagreeing on facts, as far as I can tell. It’s the context in which I personally hold those facts contrasted with the personal context in which you hold those facts, and I would not take my own position out further than I have. People do tremendous evil. For myself, I think all religions have some measure of repugnant shit, especially the Abrahamic variety.
Yet if someone holds a personal faith that lifts them up, lifts those around them up, that helps them to live in a hard and brutal world, then I personally won’t tar them with the same brush that I absolutely reserve in full force for the perpetrators of those evils you named. But you gotta do you, and that’s not just a blithe, easy statement. This is something I had to fight through to clarity for myself, it took years, and I expect anyone deeply fucked by religion has to do the same. Maybe that’s you as well.
So honestly, if I were to ask you one thing it would be this: look at your position, what you’ve written, and ask yourself what the end result is in terms of lifting yourself and your inner world up in such a way that you are no longer crushed by the evils you see around you, and which you may have even suffered yourself. Or to put it another way, “If I decide this is how I want my worldview to be, will the way in which I am viewing the vast evil around me advance my well-being or improve my life in any way?” When I left Christianity after decades, that was what I had to ask myself. It was quite possibly one of the most important questions I have ever been asked. So that’s what I am asking you as well: not for public discussion, but for you to consider privately, over time, along with the well-stated facts of your case.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, and if I have provided offense in any way, I apologize. That’s not my goal, and I hope that is self-apparent.
EDITED TO ADD that I looked up that sect, Chabad-Lubavitch, and beyond the mattress thing being discredited I honestly did not find any mention of pedophilia in regard to that sect. Trump and Putin both apparently love them, though, which is not in their favor. I will continue to look. If you want to toss me some links I will read them.
First of all thank you for taking the time. I really enjoyed reading your answer. I know I’m very abrasive sometimes and usually at this point people start calling me antisemite or bot, so I appreciate it.
Absolutely. I couldn’t said that better.
No, I’m not willing to bundle everyone by virtue of membership, no. But I recognise these evils are the symptoms of a root cause that, perhaps doesn’t encompass everyone, but it’s very close to power and touches so many organisations and entities, I’m not sure what would be left if we throw away the rotten part.
In general I would advocate for much much more stringent regulation over religions, cults, sects, faiths, lodges etc… I agree with pretty much everything you said but I would like to answer the last bit.
No, it doesn’t, it absolutely does not advance my well-being or improve my life in any way. Actually the opposite. But it just doesn’t matter, perhaps we should stop focusing and acting solely on the base of what benefits ourselves, this is a delusional egocentric system. We learned that, regardless of what it is true or false, right or wrong, if it benefits us we should do it and if it harms us we should refuse it. Nothing else really matter.
I don’t agree. Perhaps if we keep pointing at stuff and see evil we should ask if we are in hell not if we are wrong. It’s a bummer, a party pooper, I know, but sometimes I like to remind everyone that we do are in extreme danger, actual code red, alarm alarm stuff. Shit is not going well at all and we are NOT doing anything about it.
To conclude on the topic of Talmudic Judaism, think about this: Jesus in the Talmud is boiling in excrements. The Jewish Passover celebration is the celebration of the death of Jesus. This is why you can see on YouTube israeli (even kids) spitting and abusing Christians going to Israel. Believe what they say.
Ah, what was Jesus’s sin? Saying we are all the same. Thanks for the chat
P.S. This may also contribute. It’s something by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn I read probably forty years ago, and it put into words what I had been suspecting anyway, that organizations are NOT inscrutable entities made of their own special something but merely groups of individual humans.
Thus, when an organization does something shitty, it’s because some shitty individuals inside it think it’s a grand idea and the head shit signs off on it and then at that point, all the individuals inside that organization are then faced with a choice to either ride along or get off altogether, because there are rarely any choices in between those two poles. But there’s always a subset who would gladly throw a wrench in the works if they thought it would make any difference, because they think it’s ass and they resent it all, never having wanted it to begin with.
So I don’t believe in organizations anymore, only the individuals within it. And the line between good and evil crosses not between people, but across the heart of every person. That’s what I got from Solzhenitsyn.
From The Gulag Archipelago, Part 4, Chapter 1, “The Ascent”:
Lol, I need to self-correct here just a hair.
No, you’re right, and it’s a failure on my part to frame the concept better. For myself, I believe that actions follow thoughts. So if I want to make or be part of positive change, first I have to lift my own thoughts. And how can I truly see someone else in their reality, as they really are, if I won’t even see myself as I really am?
What I found for myself was that I can’t wallow in thoughts that involve huge, vast conspiracies of evil because 1) it’s factually not true that every person in any given org supports everything that org does, especially if that org is doing evil shit because evil always involves coercion; and 2) it’s a thought structure that is overwhelming to the point of personal paralysis.
So when I wrote that, I was speaking solely of the inner world, of examining and even changing the way you hold your beliefs about evil if that current belief system doesn’t lift you up in a way that makes you a better person, NOT tangible externals and looking away from them because hey, fuck you I got mine. You’re right, that’s shit. If we have a conscience, we’re either using it OR we are deluding ourselves about having one.
That’s one of the things that changing my own inner world got me to see and understand differently. There are a LOT of people doing something about it, in every little way they know how. Look around: it’s chaos. If everyone were cooperating with the powers-that-be it would not now be chaotic. But chaos is the kitchen of change.
Or to put it another (very hypothetical) way, if all you can see are the vast hordes of wrongdoers marching in lockstep, you will never see the less-noticeable individuals like me (hypothetically) flattening their tires and (hypothetically) sugaring their gas tanks behind their backs while they march.
We can all do something. I genuinely believe that. Even if it’s only getting in the way. There’s only one guy that gets to be editor of the NY Times and it’s not me, so they’re never going to tell the truth about full-spectrum resistance or direct action: I should stop waiting for public acknowledgement.
But if I see my thing I can do, and I do it, that lifts me and it lifts my world. Gotta see it first, though, and that requires a belief system that allows for seeing it. And that’s why I asked you the question I did. Thank you as well for a bracing chat. You’re a good person. Don’t stop.
Chabad are mostly notable for being less insular than most Orthodox sects, doing a lot of outreach to secular/Reform/Conservative Jews, and thus ending up as one of the big names in overseas funding for Zionism in the modern day. They’re really the mainstream face of Orthodox Judaism, and the fucked up abuse scandals in Israel have tended to come from fringe, Messianic sects that the state’s Rabbinate and larger organizations like Chabad can at least pretend to distance themselves from.
As for the Talmud, it’s weird how much it tends to get played up in antisemitic narratives, because in my (very limited) experience it is really, incredibly dry and mostly boring. It’s like reading Reddit comments on every page of the scriptures, where 5 incredibly pedantic nerds are arguing over what exactly counts as a fork, or what a story about a wage dispute is supposed to say about contract law and social hierarchy. There’s a predictably authoritarian “just listen to your boss and your rabbi” bent to the morals it extracts, but at the end of the day it’s a couple thousand pages of mundane, day-to-day legal doctrine. Anyone can learn Talmud, it’s just a lot of effort, and like a lot of difficult religious texts, it mostly ends up being a source local authority figures can pull out to settle arguments in their favor.
Thank you for this context. I had actually suspected as much, especially in regard to how people use the Talmud for prooftexting (selectively pulling bits out of a text with which to authoritatively settle disputes) because that’s exactly how the Christian bible is used by the same sort of people, But as I said above I’m not overly familiar with the Talmud, so this tracks. And yeah, it is really dry reading! I did try a few times, lol.
But it’s depressing how similar some people are in their tactics to suppress real questions and debate, even across faiths.
There’s a lot of government and religious NGO money funneled around Israel for religious schools and student stipends, so any unscrupulous rabbis looking to start an abusive cult have plenty of opportunities handed to them. It’s really not unlike the various Christian cults that sprouted up on compounds in the American West, taking advantage of cheap resources and isolation tactics to build organizations that beat the shit out of children or do whatever else they want.
Edit: I think the settlements in particular create a similar physical dynamic, where living on stolen land ringed with fences and security checkpoints allows leaders to create an insular community that keeps victims in and accountability out. Even twenty minutes’ drive from Jerusalem, no one gets into a settlement without arranged permission, and a housewife with no car may as well be stranded out on the prairie.
They believe they’re better than everybody else, and that most of the rest isn’t even fully human. Just like most of other destructive ideologies in history.
So… Nazi’s?
The ancient Greeks and Romans certainly thought this sort of behavior was typical and foundational to Christian and Jewish religious practices and fought hard to liberate people from the clutches of those religious cults in antiquity.
Funny thing: the blood libel (the allegation that a group was murdering and cannibalizing children) was originally a Roman accusation against the early Christians. It was only later used by the Christians against the Jews.
Judaism as a whole is one big cult, people just ignore it because it doesn’t affect most of us but if you went into Talmud and other traditional jewish writings you’d find they’re just divorced from reality because of their traditions. I’ll give you one example, and go read yourself if you want more
https://youtu.be/TrsENvsJSDE?is=17cilcfOefv05fSd